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Post by min on Aug 19, 2016 15:58:25 GMT
If THAT Rhaego died in battle, then he has indeed been dead for years...and his bloodriders - once living in present time - would be fulfilling their duty to avenge him. Maybe? This makes some sense to me. The infant Rhaego was dead long ago and his soul was already sent to another; perhaps Tyrion, who often describes himself as a grotesque, his body twisted. So he might not have the blood of the dragon; but the soul of the dragon.
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Post by snowfyre on Aug 19, 2016 15:58:27 GMT
I agree, they're connected at a deep level...and if I'm reading you correctly, this theory and some of your earlier musings are collecting everything under the Asshai umbrella, yes? Possibly. I mean yes... you're correct to connect some earlier musings (like that entire thread on the language of origin for the word maegi). I'm not entirely settled on the role played by Asshai, historically. Once, as a "small theory," I proposed that the Dothraki were originally refugees from Asshai. And there are enough clues to draw some connection there - though the term "refugees" may be misleading or inaccurate. My understanding from TWOIAF (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Dothraki are actually the younger culture. You're not wrong, as far as the World book goes. I'm just not sure what I think of the World book, so in this case I've tried to ignore it. What the World book suggests is that the Dothraki, as we know them, have only been around for a few hundred years - or, basically, since the Doom. I guess I should look back and see what, exactly, Yandel says about them... but my impression was that nobody really gave a fuck about the Dothraki until after Valyria fell anyway. So it's just as likely that they escaped notice of the historians. Especially given the fact that they are a non-literate people who do not build. That's a conveniently erasable historical presence GRRM just assigned the Dothraki, isn't it? Who knows where they've been all this time? I lean toward the idea that our First Men were a faction of pre-Ghis Ghiscari (?) that were forced out/conquered, taking their gods and their language with them - they ditched the gods in favor of the Children but did they retain the language? Did the Children and the Giants learn the "old tongue" (different from the "true tongue") from the First Men? /digression You're wandering tracks I've been down myself. I've long mused over how Old Ghis and the First Men are related. At the moment, I'm rather inclined to consider "the First Men" to have been, essentially, a proto-culture... from whom many or most of these more recent peoples descend. And that the Dothraki, given their nomadic lifestyle and location in Essos, represent the closest approximation of what that original culture may have looked like. Then, believe it or not, I think the next stage of cultural development may also be shown to us... in the Lhazareen. Look back at that chapter where Mirri Maz Duur first appears on stage, and reread Dany's POV description of the "Lamb Men," and what she's told of the relationship between Dothraki and Lhazareen. Lhazar is an agricultural society of shepherds and farmers - and they are despised by the Dothraki as "sheep." You know where else we find a relatively primitive society heaping scorn on it's more developed neighbor? Yep... north Westeros. The free folk despise those south of the wall as kneelers and "sheep." (Though ironically, the free folk themselves are the ones always garbed in sheepskin.) Now, re: Asshai, the history is not known, only "a city stood there since the world began and will stand there until it ends." This may be good indication that Asshai is the OLDEST of the cradles of civilization. Yes, but the same thing is said of Qarth. I do think it's interesting that Vaes Dothrak and Asshai sound somewhat similar. Big empty spaces, with very few people to fill it. No horses or livestock at all in Asshai, of course. And in Vaes Dothrak, there are statues that (according to Jorah Mormont, fount of wisdom) may have come from Asshai. Somewhere, I did make a post listing the various things that potentially connect Dothraki culture/history to Asshai. I'll see if I can dig that up.
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Post by min on Aug 19, 2016 16:12:27 GMT
Further, thinking about Tyrion and the forging of the sword Lightbringer; Tyrion drowns at the Bridge of Dreams and is brought back to life; so forged in water. He has the heart of the lion or must find his heart as Bran must find his heart; forged in the heart of a lion. And finally, forged in the heart of fire. Dany and whatever transpires when he finally meets her. He might love her as others come to lover her; as the savior of the world and possibly his savior.
Wouldn't that be crazy? LOL
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 19, 2016 16:18:27 GMT
my impression was that nobody really gave a fuck about the Dothraki until after Valyria fell anyway. So it's just as likely that they escaped notice of the historians. Especially given the fact that they are a non-literate people who do not build. Then, believe it or not, I think the next stage of cultural development may also be shown to us... in the Lhazareen. Look back at that chapter where Mirri Maz Duur first appears on stage, and reread Dany's POV description of the "Lamb Men," and what she's told of the relationship between Dothraki and Lhazareen. Lhazar is an agricultural society of shepherds and farmers Yes! To go back to the Sumerians and early Mesopotamia, this is exactly what we get - the earliest cultures were ekeing out their subsistence in various ways - fishing, farming, shepherding - and then began this process of splitting and merging. "The Sumerian city of Eridu, on the coast of the Persian Gulf, is considered to have been the world's first city, where three separate cultures may have fused — that of peasant Ubaidian farmers, living in mud-brick huts and practicing irrigation; that of mobile nomadic Semitic pastoralists living in black tents and following herds of sheep and goats; and that of fisher folk, living in reed huts in the marshland." As populations grew, one culture would overtake the other and something new would crop up; on occasion the old culture would relocate and keep up the former traditions in the new area. It's a constant ebb and flow of cultural diffusion. The First Men were a bronze culture - if they were a more pastoralist faction encroached upon/ousted by a more aggressive tribe that may have been the precursor to Old Ghis/Dothraki, then perhaps what we have is a migration of farmer types who literally beat their plowshares into swords to defend themselves against invaders before giving up and fleeing across a land bridge to Westeros, where they settle and encounter the non-weapons CotF. (ETA: bonus points if the more aggressive tribe had some kind of fire magic thing going on.) The more aggressive tribe continues to evolve in Essos into the Slaver's Bay region, with perhaps even one of the lesser tribes like or belonging to the First Men group heading further east to become the Lamb Men. Obviously, common dialects then began separating into distinct languages while still retaining etymological elements of the original. I dunno, just spitballing here. Fascinating topic though. Somewhere, I did make a post listing the various things that potentially connect Dothraki culture/history to Asshai. I'll see if I can dig that up. Please do!!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 19, 2016 16:20:45 GMT
Further, thinking about Tyrion and the forging of the sword Lightbringer; Tyrion drowns at the Bridge of Dreams and is brought back to life; so forged in water. He has the heart of the lion or must find his heart as Bran must find his heart; forged in the heart of a lion. And finally, forged in the heart of fire. Dany and whatever transpires when he finally meets her. I'm gonna agree that Tyrion is an excellent fit for a time-travelling magical prenatal Rhaego baby-swap. Does anyone remember Tyrion and Bronn talking about eating horse meat? Tyrion's not into it, especially because the horse in question is a horse that Jaime gave him, but Bronn mentions the Dothraki. Hrm. I need to find that. It's during his road trip with Cat I think.
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Post by snowfyre on Aug 19, 2016 16:26:56 GMT
Does anyone remember Tyrion and Bronn talking about eating horse meat? Tyrion's not into it, especially because the horse in question is a horse that Jaime gave him, but Bronn mentions the Dothraki. Here it is: (This, of course, being the logical conclusion for what happened to Rhaego after he was born... he was fed to the dogs.)
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 19, 2016 16:34:01 GMT
(This, of course, being the logical conclusion for what happened to Rhaego after he was born... he was fed to the dogs. I...did not even catch this association. This is probably spot on.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 19, 2016 16:34:34 GMT
This, of course, being the logical conclusion for what happened to Rhaego after he was born... he was fed to the dogs. If Dany had had a "normal" birth and the child was deformed, that is exactly what the Dothraki would have done. Wow. And wait... did Tywin say he almost drowned Tyrion? Or that he should have fed him to the dogs? /headspin ETA I can't find anything like this. Not sure if it was something in the mummer's version?
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Post by snowfyre on Aug 19, 2016 16:35:50 GMT
There are actually two posts... one leading into the other. We were discussing which language maegi might belong to. First, this post: I've actually concluded that maegi is, in fact, a Dothraki word. However... it may not originally have been a Dothraki word. It's possible that it's a loanword, adopted from elsewhere. The reason I think it qualifies as a Dothraki word is because (as you quoted above, Maester Flagons ) Dany learns the word from Jhiqui. And Jhiqui is the handmaid whose responsibility was to instruct Dany in the Dothraki language. So, here are the relevant quotes: Is it a sure thing? Nope. But it does make sense, that a new word learned from her instructor in the Dothraki tongue... is probably a Dothraki word. That said... this is also true: The Dothraki travel far and wide and clash with many cultures, so it's hard to say where they got this word from. The other maegi in the story is Maggy. The one who gave the bloodtelling to Cersei. She is from the East. Not much to go on there. I will guess that the word is from the East. And Maggy the Frog is probably not Dothraki. In fact, the common thread tying Maggy to Mirri (besides similar names)... is that they are practitioners of bloodmagic. So it would make sense if the word maegi had something to do with that. All that said, I have a related theory regarding the Dothraki that would make all this a bit more intriguing. And that led into this one: ...which is a post/theory I still like very much.
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Post by snowfyre on Aug 19, 2016 16:41:19 GMT
the theory could explain a handful of other things, as well. Things like: - why the Dothraki tell tales of ghost grass "down in the Shadowlands beyond Asshai"
- the presence of ugly statues in Vaes Dothrak, said to have come from the Shadowlands
- remarkable linguistic correspondence of certain Dothraki words with prophecies reportedly "written" in Asshai (e.g, shierak qiya = "Bleeding Star")
- cultural taboos/prohibitions against bloodmagic (related to their deep-seated fear of maegi)
Also add to that list the remarkable comments of Dany's handmaids, regarding abandoned cities and ghosts, when they come upon Vaes Tolorro in the Red Waste:
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Post by min on Aug 19, 2016 16:52:52 GMT
Dany is also accused of being a Maegi by Qotho when she insists that MMD perform the ritual. MMD is already inside the tent.
Mirri Maz Duur was dancing, and not alone.
Dany saw naked fear on the faces of th Dothraki. "This must not be," Qotho thundered.
She had not seen the bloodrider return. Haggo and Cohollo were with him. They had brought the hairless men, the eunuchs who healed with knife and needle and fire.
"This will be," Dany replied.
"Maegi," Haggo growled. And old Cohollo --Chohollo who had bound his life to Drogo's on the day of his birth, Cohollo who had always been kind to her -- Cohollo spat full in her face.
"You will die, maegi." Qotho promised, "but the other must die first." He drew his arakh and made for the tent.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 19, 2016 17:09:01 GMT
Also add to that list the remarkable comments of Dany's handmaids, regarding abandoned cities and ghosts, when they come upon Vaes Tolorro in the Red Waste Didn't someone else also make the comment about the artifacts in Vaes Dothrak being "the trash of dead cities"? Which makes me wonder...how did the Dothraki get the statues from Asshai? This isn't a city they sacked, at least not recently. Asshai is sortof a 'dead city' in its own way; were the statues actually "trash" that migratory peoples took with them?
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Post by snowfyre on Aug 19, 2016 17:16:19 GMT
Didn't someone else also make the comment about the artifacts in Vaes Dothrak being "the trash of dead cities"? Viserys, I believe. Surly young man. Not enjoying his vacation to Vaes Dothrak. Probably not reliable in his assessment of statuary authenticity. how did the Dothraki get the statues from Asshai? This isn't a city they sacked, at least not recently. Asshai is sortof a 'dead city' in its own way Exactly what I asked myself! Vaes Dothrak is filled with monuments to gods and heroes taken from cities the Dothraki have sacked. So Jorah's comment that those ugly, terrible statues come from Asshai would imply... that the Dothraki conquered Asshai? Really?! C'mon... there's more to that explanation than we've been told. So what's going on there?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 19, 2016 17:20:31 GMT
Found it.. it was Cersei
AFFC Cersei IV
No Bells in his beard, eh?
Heh.
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Post by min on Aug 19, 2016 18:56:05 GMT
Exactly what I asked myself! Vaes Dothrak is filled with monuments to gods and heroes taken from cities the Dothraki have sacked. So Jorah's comment that those ugly, terrible statues come from Asshai would imply... that the Dothraki conquered Asshai? Really?! C'mon... there's more to that explanation than we've been told. So what's going on there? When there is complete devastation and annihilation; much is lost in terms of the level of civilization; artifacts, knowledge; people with knowledge are gone. Societies revert to non-literate states. This happened in Europe when Rome fell. The only literates were a few monks copying books and teaching people to read. Societies outside the devastation were unaffected. So we have displaced people taking up a nomadic lifestyle and a warrior society like the Mongols. www.smithsonianmag.com/history/nice-things-to-say-about-attila-the-hun-87559701/?no-ist
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