Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 21, 2016 14:27:00 GMT
Placeholder to continue discussion of min 's brilliant observation of GRRM's tendency to hide people in brothels. Will move the original sidebar posts from the other thread; please feel free to carry on.
From the original:
Aug 17, 2016 at 1:53am min said: Did Varys hide Lyanna in a brothel? Where she was raped hundreds of times and is this why Ned reacts the way he does when he meets Cat at Petyr's brothel? Because eventually he finds her in a brothel or is told where to find her.
I. love. this. Never even occurred to me and it makes perfect sense. Lyanna forced into prostitution, KG somewhere "far away", pillow houses in Lys, Mero telling Dany he thinks he had sex with her sister in a brothel. And of course the famous chapter with Ned visiting Robert's newest bastard child in a brothel. OH MY GOD this is fantastic! ETA: I think the downside to this thought is Ned's lack of extreme negative emotion toward Rhaegar AND Varys - so either he doesn't know, they weren't responsible, or it isn't the case after all. Still want to explore further though!!!
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 30, 2017 4:02:58 GMT
Idea triggered from a quote min posted in another thread.
They wandered for half the morning. She saw a beautiful feathered cloak from the Summer Isles, and took it for a gift. In return, she gave the merchant a silver medallion from her belt. That was how it was done among the Dothraki. A birdseller taught a green-and-red parrot to say her name, and Dany laughed again, yet still refused to take him. What would she do with a green-and-red parrot in a khalasar? She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfumes of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more.
I did a search on "scented oils" in the books, and there are 7 mentions. 6 in Dany's chapters in AGOT, when she is being tended by slaves in preparation for something intimate with Drogo, and 1 in Arya's ADWD Blind Girl chapter, when she encounters some braavos at a tavern in Ragman's Harbor. Interesting that this particular chapter is also the one in which Arya skinchanges into a cat to finally best the Kindly Man, an act that results in her regaining her eyesight - literally, she remembers who she is, and then she sees again.
Anyway....scented oils, association with Dany, and particularly with her handmaids getting her ready for sexy time. Red door also associated with Dany, obviously. Then, it occurred to me: Sex. Red door. RED LIGHT.
"A red-light district is a part of an urban area where a concentration of prostitution and sex-oriented businesses, such as sex shops, strip clubs, and adult theaters are found. Areas in many big cities around the world have acquired an international reputation as red-light districts. The term red-light district originates from the red lights that were used as signs of brothels."
All quotes mentioning the red door:
She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.
"We will have it all back someday, sweet sister," he would promise her. Sometimes his hands shook when he talked about it. "The jewels and the silks, Dragonstone and King's Landing, the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms, all they have taken from us, we will have it back." Viserys lived for that day. All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.
Dany had only meant their rooms in Illyrio's estate, no true home surely, though all they had, but her brother did not want to hear that. There was no home there for him. Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.
But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King's Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind's eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind's eye, all the doors were red.
Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door …
The "Wake the Dragon" Dream...
"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"
She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.
Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.
The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.
The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.
House of the Undying:
She fled from him, but only as far as the next open door. I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos.
Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door.
"Your Grace?" Missandei stood at her elbow wrapped in a bedrobe, wooden sandals on her feet. "I woke, and saw that you were gone. Did you sleep well? What are you looking at?" "My city," said Dany. "I was looking for a house with a red door, but by night all the doors are black."
"A red door?" Missandei was puzzled. "What house is this?"
"No house. It does not matter." Dany took the younger girl by the hand. "Never lie to me, Missandei. Never betray me."
"He died for me." Dany clutched her lion pelt to her chest. Underneath, a sheer white linen tunic covered her to midthigh. She had been dreaming of a house with a red door when Missandei woke her. There had been no time to dress.
"What is it?" she cried, as Irri shook her gently by the shoulder. It was the black of night outside. Something is wrong, she knew at once. "Is it Daario? What's happened?" In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door. In her dream he had been kissing her all over—her mouth, her neck, her breasts.
"Of him, little and less. These ships, though … Your Grace, with these ships we might be home before year's end."
Dany had never known a home. In Braavos, there had been a house with a red door, but that was all.
"Three liars," Daario said darkly. "They deceived me."
"And bought you too, I do not doubt." He did not trouble to deny it. Dany unrolled the parchment and examined it again. Braavos. This was done in Braavos, while we were living in the house with the red door. Why did that make her feel so strange?
Soon Dany was as clean as she was ever going to be. She pushed herself to her feet, splashing softly. Water ran down her legs and beaded on her breasts. The sun was climbing up the sky, and her people would soon be gathering. She would rather have drifted in the fragrant pool all day, eating iced fruit off silver trays and dreaming of a house with a red door, but a queen belongs to her people, not to herself.
Daenerys Targaryen was no stranger to the Dothraki sea, the great ocean of grass that stretched from the forest of Qohor to the Mother of Mountains and the Womb of the World. She had seen it first when she was still a girl, newly wed to Khal Drogo and on her way to Vaes Dothrak to be presented to the crones of the dosh khaleen. The sight of all that grass stretching out before her had taken her breath away. The sky was blue, the grass was green, and I was full of hope. Ser Jorah had been with her then, her gruff old bear. She'd had Irri and Jhiqui and Doreah to care for her, her sun-and-stars to hold her in the night, his child growing inside her. Rhaego. I was going to name him Rhaego, and the dosh khaleen said he would be the Stallion Who Mounts the World. Not since those half-remembered days in Braavos when she lived in the house with the red door had she been as happy.
There is a fascinating theme running through these - more tomorrow.
There is a fascinating theme running through these - more tomorrow.
LOL! What a great pick-me-up to start the day. Where does Dany learn to speak old valyrian as a child?
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IV She was arranging the last of his gifts—a sandsilk cloak, green as grass, with a pale grey border that would bring out the silver in his hair—when Viserys arrived, dragging Doreah by the arm. Her eye was red where he'd hit her. "How dare you send this whore to give me commands," he said. He shoved the handmaid roughly to the carpet.
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V A sense of dread closed around her heart. "Go to him," she commanded Ser Jorah. "Stop him. Bring him here. Tell him he can have the dragon's eggs if that is what he wants." The knight rose swiftly to his feet.
"Where is my sister?" Viserys shouted, his voice thick with wine. "I've come for her feast. How dare you presume to eat without me? No one eats before the king. Where is she? The whore can't hide from the dragon."
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI "There is no need for you to trouble yourself." Ser Jorah glanced away impatiently. "Enjoy the market. I will rejoin you when my business is concluded."
Curious, Dany thought as she watched him stride off through the throngs. She didn't see why she should not go with him. Perhaps Ser Jorah meant to find a woman after he met with the merchant captain. Whores frequently traveled with the caravans, she knew, and some men were queerly shy about their couplings. She gave a shrug. "Come," she told the others.
Where does Dany learn to speak old valyrian as a child?
Since she not only speaks old Valyrian, but speaks it with a Tyroshi accent per the market vendor, I'm going to say she picked it up in Tyrosh...where the house with the red door actually is. Tyrosh is also the last of the Free Cities to speak High Valyrian - the others abandoned it and now have their own dialects. Tyrion mentions it:
He had learned to read High Valyrian at his maester's knee, though what they spoke in the Nine Free Cities … well, it was not so much a dialect as nine dialects on the way to becoming separate tongues. Tyrion had some Braavosi and a smattering of Myrish. In Tyrosh he should be able to curse the gods, call a man a cheat, and order up an ale, thanks to a sellsword he had once known at the Rock.
But in a search of Tyrion's chapters, there's also this:
Tyrion to waddle after as best he could on legs half the length of hers. From behind an ornate Myrish screen carved with flowers and fancies and dreaming maidens, they peered unseen into a common room where an old man was playing a cheerful air on the pipes. In a cushioned alcove, a drunken Tyroshi with a purple beard dandled a buxom young wench on his knee. He'd unlaced her bodice and was tilting his cup to pour a thin trickle of wine over her breasts so he might lap it off.
This is at Chataya's brothel on the Street of Silk.
I'd originally intended to discuss brothels and the low-level undercurrent of prostitution that is running through the series - the old trope of "hooker with a heart of gold" that we see glimmers of in Chataya/Alayaya, the Black Pearl, even Tysha and Shae to a degree. Also, there are a LOT of inferences to this with regard to Dany and with regard to Lyanna. I'll come back to that with quotes.
The theme I mentioned up above with all those quotes - the big house with the red door represents home and happiness to Dany, but it also has a tinge of...licentiousness. Earthly delights. Almost a bacchanal flavor to it. Dany associates the HwtRD with arms to keep her warm, Daario being intimate with her, lounging around eating fruit in a very leisurely fashion; at one point she's dreaming of it while naked in bed.
I am also intrigued that the HwtRD features so prominently in her visions inside the House of the Undying - and if you think of the HwtRD representing something of sexuality, like a brothel, it's super telling to me that the very first thing she sees once inside is "In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing. " A beautiful woman being used in a sexual way by four "little" men - "little" perhaps representing "common". Later in the HotU, after she hears the words of the Undying and is seeing the visions flash before her, including ones with the red door, she is lulled into passiveness only to awaken to the Undying getting handsy with her:
Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!” They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them... But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany’s gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting...
Dany's long strange trip through the House of the Undying begins with a woman being violated by little men, and ends with Dany herself being violated by the Undying. And the HotU journey is basically chronicling her LIFE.... I mean, wow.
Returning to the Tyrosh thing for a sec before I forget about it -
So we've gone through Lemongate ad nauseam, and we have the original publication of the Dany chapters from Wayback Days that placed the red door in Tyrosh instead of Braavos. Most everyone has written that off as a GRRM change of mind, a retcon that wasn't fully addressed/all references not fully corrected in AGOT. Ok, that's great, but...why did George make the change in the first place? And if this is merely a retcon goof, why not clear it up instead of continually muddying the waters about it? Regardless, Dany HAS a connection to Braavos. Everything about her early life is associated with Braavos, yet she has all these incongruent memories and feelings that are distinctly not-Braavos. It's almost like she was two places at once.
And here's where I veer into crackpot territory a little bit. Okay, a lot. I was thinking about baby swapping and Weasel Pie 's mention of gender-changing dragons with regard to switched babies, and something struck me: A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl "Bring me the face," said the kindly man. The waif made no answer, but she could hear her slippers whispering over the stone floor. To the girl he said, "Drink this," and pressed a cup into her hand. She drank it down at once. It was very tart, like biting into a lemon. A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was not me, that was only Arya.
"Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with. Keep your eyes closed." She felt his fingers brushing back her hair. "Stay still. This will feel queer. You may be dizzy, but you must not move." Then came a tug and a soft rustling as the new face was pulled down over the old. The leather scraped across her brow, dry and stiff, but as her blood soaked into it, it softened and turned supple. Her cheeks grew warm, flushed. She could feel her heart fluttering beneath her breast, and for one long moment she could not catch her breath. Hands closed around her throat, hard as stone, choking her. Her own hands shot up to claw at the arms of her attacker, but there was no one there. A terrible sense of fear filled her, and she heard a noise, a hideous crunching noise, accompanied by blinding pain. A face floated in front of her, fat, bearded, brutal, his mouth twisted with rage. She heard the priest say, "Breathe, child. Breathe out the fear. Shake off the shadows. He is dead. She is dead. Her pain is gone. Breathe."
This last part is so much like Dany's "wake the dragon" dreams, particularly this one:
Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. "You woke the dragon," he screamed as he kicked her. "You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon." Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid …
...that I have wondered if this is Dany experiencing a "past life" moment. This dream happens before she is even wed to Drogo, yet it sounds like she is heavily pregnant and being beaten by "Viserys". But is it? Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise.The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”
Arya's experience is, of course, at the House of Black and White...in Braavos.
A thousand faces were gazing down on her.
They hung upon the walls, before her and behind her, high and low, everywhere she looked, everywhere she turned. She saw old faces and young faces, pale faces and dark faces, smooth faces and wrinkled faces, freckled faces and scarred faces, handsome faces and homely faces, men and women, boys and girls, even babes, smiling faces, frowning faces, faces full of greed and rage and lust, bald faces and faces bristling with hair. Masks, she told herself, it's only masks, but even as she thought the thought, she knew it wasn't so. They were skins.
Even so, there is the seeing, the true seeing. Some people, like Faceless Men, red priestesses, etc, can see through glamors and tricks to the true face. Want to bet who else can do that? Shadowbinders.
"I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow." She squeezed the water from her silvery hair. "I am half-sick of riddling. In Qarth I was a beggar, but here I am a queen. I command you—" "Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are."
Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight. "Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice.
Remember what else can see through disguises? Animals. Like cats, or direwolves, or... "The dragons know. Do you?"
Before I forget, here's some support... more in a bit, this is awesome stuff!
Agot Jon IX
Mole's Town was bigger than it seemed, but three quarters of it was under the ground, in deep warm cellars connected by a maze of tunnels. Even the whorehouse was down there, nothing on the surface but a wooden shack no bigger than a privy, with a red lantern hung over the door.
A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl "Bring me the face," said the kindly man. The waif made no answer, but she could hear her slippers whispering over the stone floor. To the girl he said, "Drink this," and pressed a cup into her hand. She drank it down at once. It was very tart, like biting into a lemon. A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was not me, that was only Arya.
"Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with. Keep your eyes closed." She felt his fingers brushing back her hair. "Stay still. This will feel queer. You may be dizzy, but you must not move."
Sooo could Dany have been glamoured/face changed without knowing it? Meaning Dany and Jon are not twins but face-swapped/gender-swapped? I already know I'm crazy no need to remind me, just fleshing out this thought. Or perhaps Dany is the "saved" Aegon beneath the face of his baby sister?
I want to also mention you and I are obsessed with the Mormonts being involved in human trafficking, and that Lynesse can be included in the "wherever whores go" master list...
Dany "remember who you are" Targaryen and Jon "never forget who you are" Snow are both fed the same sentiment. I think we're onto breaking into new territory because Jon could now easily be the Targ (Aegon VI) and Dany is the Stark? Dany already has plenty of warginess and Starkness about her. Ashara/Ned or Brandon?
Ashara's Targ looks have to means something and Jon's "I am not a Stark" has to mean something.
Also about those brothels - Chataya's has a secret tunnel, trying to think this out. Maybe this turned out to be the smuggling point for Aegon VI, say Aegon VI was face-swapped/gender-swapped into a female baby, she could be hidden nearby much as the Stark Maiden hid with her baby- both via underground/tunnel areas?
Chataya's from wiki
The brothel is a house two stories tall with a stone ground floor and a timber upper floor. A round turret rises from one corner of the structure. Many of the windows are leaded. Over the door swings an ornate lamp, a globe of gilded metal and scarlet glass.
Inside the entrance the air smells of some exotic spice and the floor beneath displays a mosaic of two women entwined in love.
The common room is behind an ornate Myrish screen that has been carved with flowers and fancies and dreaming maidens.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2017 18:50:10 GMT by Weasel Pie
No squall could frighten Dany, though. Daenerys Stormborn, she was called, for she had come howling into the world on distant Dragonstone as the greatest storm in the memory of Westeros howled outside, a storm so fierce that it ripped gargoyles from the castle walls and smashed her father's fleet to kindling.
The narrow sea was often stormy, and Dany had crossed it half a hundred times as a girl, running from one Free City to the next half a step ahead of the Usurper's hired knives. She loved the sea. She liked the sharp salty smell of the air, and the vastness of horizons bounded only by a vault of azure sky above. It made her feel small, but free as well. She liked the dolphins that sometimes swam along beside Balerion, slicing through the waves like silvery spears, and the flying fish they glimpsed now and again. She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 30, 2017 22:02:52 GMT
Dumping in some thoughts from an earlier thread.
Re: the famous chapter supporting RLJ from AGOT ...the one that everyone forgets is about the discovery of the bastard daughter of the KING. AGOT Eddard IX:
Ned is at Chataya's brothel visiting Barra, Robert's newest bastard. Just prior to this, Littlefinger pokes at Ned a bit about their destination. This is after he has already poked at him once by arranging for him to meet Catelyn at a brothel, mind you, something that enraged Ned greatly. "Chataya runs a choice establishment," Littlefinger said as they rode. "I've half a mind to buy it. Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else." Lord Petyr chuckled at his own wit. Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.
So Ned is quiet on his way to the whorehouse, and we get an internal association to 'blood' and 'guilts'. And, Littlefinger seems to be taunting him repeatedly with the brothels - a nod that he knows this is a sore spot?
Back to little Barra.
"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her nipple to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. "I named her Barra," she said as the child nursed. "She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair . . . " "She does." Eddard Stark had touched the baby's fine, dark hair. It flowed through his fingers like black silk. Robert's firstborn had had the same fine hair, he seemed to recall. "Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it . . . as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is." "I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them. "And tell him I've not been with no one else. I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new. Chataya said I could have half a year, for the baby, and for hoping he'd come back. So you'll tell him I'm waiting, won't you? I don't want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly." Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting." She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?
Lusts that have to be sated by visiting whores. Okay, so soopar interesting that Lyanna musing about Robert's whoring nature segues to a conversation with an actual whore - a VIRGIN whore, no less - that has just birthed one of Robert's children, and THAT leads him to promise said whore that all will be well, and her reaction makes him think of Jon and bastards of lustful men...Lustful men who have sex with whores at brothels.
So a couple of things here: Ned thinks of bastards born of lust, and is reminded of Jon. This tells me that Ned believes Jon to be a bastard. Next, Ned thinks this after taking leave of the bastard baby's mother, who is a whore. And all of this is tied to Lyanna. His next thought comes somewhat AFTER this association:
"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."
Ned's thoughts of Lyanna and Jon do not dovetail with Rhaegar and his presumed avoidance of brothels; they dovetail with the young whore that has just borne the bastard child of a king.
Leaving the brothel, Ned has conversation with Baelish about Robert's other bastards.
He gave Ned a sideways glance. "I've also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin's tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home." Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm. He could believe it of Cersei Lannister readily enough . . . but would the king stand by and let it happen?The Robert he had known would not have, but the Robert he had known had never been so practiced at shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see. "Why would Jon Arryn take a sudden interest in the king's baseborn children?" The short man gave a sodden shrug. "He was the King's Hand. Doubtless Robert asked him to see that they were provided for." Ned was soaked through to the bone, and his soul had grown cold. "It had to be more than that, or why kill him?" Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east." There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not. Cersei taking her measures with the bastards and Robert's willful ignorance of it now has me wondering about Elia. Or Rhaella. Maybe Aerys had returned to his old ways? Or never gave them up in the first place? Or was someone else using the secret passageway to Chataya's pleasure house? Also, how about that segue from a Hand of the King being killed for learning about the king's bastard kids, to Rhaegar? It isn't until later that we realize that Jon Arryn wasn't killed for learning about the king's bastard kids, he was killed because he learned that the king's 'legitimate' kids weren't his at all. (And it isn't until WAY later than THAT that we learn that that wasn't really why he was killed - he was actually killed because a jealous miserable woman plotted with her lover to get her husband out of the way and blame someone else for it.) ETA: I am torn here about the parentage of Rhaegar's kids, and the parentage of Rhaegar himself. We find out in the Mercy chapter that Tywin - as Hand - took a trip to Lys during Aerys' reign. Why? Is this the equivalent of Jon Arryn finding Malleon's book?
Anyway, the Queen murders the twins and then ships the mother into slavery. Lots of examples in the books to show that women taken into slavery become prostitutes in the Free Cities. Ironically, we also learn that the reason Ned Stark hates Jorah Mormont's guts is for selling "poachers" to a Tyroshi slaver. Semi-related quote:
Grazdan shrugged expansively. "If blood is what you wish, let it flow. I am told you have freed your eunuchs. Freedom means as much to an Unsullied as a hat to a haddock." He smiled at Grey Worm, but the eunuch might have been made of stone. "Those who survive we shall enslave again, and use to retake Astapor from the rabble. We can make a slave of you as well, do not doubt it. There are pleasure houses in Lys and Tyrosh where men would pay handsomely to bed the last Targaryen."
In Ned's next chapter, he confronts Robert about his indiscretion.
"I've talked to Littlefinger," Robert said. "He claims he rode off to bring the gold cloaks before the fighting began, but he admits you were returning from some whorehouse." "Some whorehouse? Damn your eyes, Robert, I went there to have a look at your daughter! Her mother has named her Barra. She looks like that first girl you fathered, when we were boys together in the Vale." He watched the queen as he spoke; her face was a mask, still and pale, betraying nothing. Robert flushed. "Barra," he grumbled. "Is that supposed to please me? Damn the girl. I thought she had more sense." "She cannot be more than fifteen, and a whore, and you thought she had sense?" Ned said, incredulous. His leg was beginning to pain him sorely. It was hard to keep his temper. "The fool child is in love with you, Robert."
Ned is stunned that a grown man could think that a teenaged girl could have sense - does his reaction sound like he has encountered this situation before?
Cersei, the Queen, later sends two Gold Cloaks to kill mother and child. Varys later discusses little Barra's death with Tyrion.
Varys: "I confess, I never dreamed the babe would be at risk. A base born girl, less then a year old, with a whore for a mother, what threat could she pose?" Tyrion: "She was Robert's, that was enough for Cersei it would seem."
Base born child in a brothel, mother is a whore = no threat to the Queen. Is this another hint of involvement by Elia or Rhaella? Also, it's hint of what was supposed to be a perfect safe space...a brothel, where the Queen would never go or care about. Was Varys actually involved in hiding a woman and her child in a brothel during RR? Disguising a noble woman as a whore with her baseborn child that should fly under the radar?
Varys knew Robert's bastard daughter was at Chataya's and supposedly said nothing; Cersei found out via Littlefinger - more clues that Petyr Baelish may have also known something about Lyanna during the Rebellion?
Ned talking with Cersei in the godswood:
"I remember Robert as he was the day he took the throne, every inch a king." he said quietly. "A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?" Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna." Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. "I do not know which of you I pity most."
What is a common practice for men who visit whores? They get drunk first. Also, Cersei describes her drunk husband having drunk sex with her and calling her by another name, and Ned immediately thinks of blue winter roses. That's an odd connection to make. If we go back to the Bael story, the blue roses are most definitely a symbol - of a maiden...who wasn't actually a maiden anymore. The fairest rose of Winterfell had already been plucked.
Finally, a random quote I happened upon while researching....from D&E, most eyebrow-raising. The Mystery Knight
"Oh, I do hope so. Hero's blood should be good for two to one. Whore's blood draws poorer odds. Ser Glendon speaks about his purported sire at every opportunity, but have you noticed that he never makes mention of his mother? For good reason. He was born of a camp follower. Jenny, her name was. Penny Jenny, they called her, until the Redgrass Field. The night before the battle, she fucked so many men that thereafter she was known as Redgrass Jenny. Fireball had her before that, I don't doubt, but so did a hundred other men. Our friend Glendon presumes quite a lot, it seems to me. He does not even have red hair." Hero's blood, thought Dunk. "He says he is a knight."
"Oh, that much is true. The boy and his sister grew up in a brothel, called the Pussywillows. After Penny Jenny died, the other whores took care of them and fed the lad the tale his mother had concocted, about him being Fireball's seed. An old squire who lived nearby gave the boy his training, such that it was, in trade for ale and cunt, but being but a squire he could not knight the little bastard. Half a year ago, however, a party of knights chanced upon the brothel and a certain Ser Morgan Dunstable took a drunken fancy to Ser Glendon's sister.As it happens, the sister was still a virgin and Dunstable did not have the price of her maidenhead. So a bargain was struck. Ser Morgan clubbed her brother a knight, right there in the Pussywillows in front of twenty witnesses, and afterwards little sister took him upstairs and let him pluck her flower. And there you are."
Any knight could make a knight. When he was squiring for Ser Arlan, Dunk had heard tales of other men who'd bought their knighthood with a kindness or a threat or a bag of silver coins, but never with a sister's maiden-head. "That's just a tale," he heard himself say. "That can't be true."
My my. Sound familiar?
Do you want to wake the dragon, you stupid little whore? Drogo's khalasar was mine. I bought them from him, a hundred thousand screamers. I paid for them with your maidenhead.
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 30, 2017 22:40:22 GMT
Also, anyone think Dany is repressing here?
Dany took the warlock's words well salted, but the magnificence of the great city was not to be denied. Three thick walls encircled Qarth, elaborately carved. The outer was red sandstone, thirty feet high and decorated with animals: snakes slithering, kites flying, fish swimming, intermingled with wolves of the red waste and striped zorses and monstrous elephants. The middle wall, forty feet high, was grey granite alive with scenes of war: the clash of sword and shield and spear, arrows in flight, heroes at battle and babes being butchered, pyres of the dead. The innermost wall was fifty feet of black marble, with carvings that made Dany blush until she told herself that she was being a fool. She was no maid; if she could look on the grey wall's scenes of slaughter, why should she avert her eyes from the sight of men and women giving pleasure to one another?
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Oct 1, 2017 2:54:49 GMT
His name was Mero, but he called himself the Titan’s bastard. Mero tossed down his wine straightaway, wiped his mouth with the back of his hand, and leered at Dany. “I believe I fucked your twin sister in a pleasure house back home. Or was it you?”
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Oct 1, 2017 3:32:11 GMT
This does make a lot of sense. If you live in a world where certain bloodlines are “magical”, then it only makes sense to try and cultivate these bloodlines. And if you are not of the aristocracy, where a handful of lords agree to certain specific marriage proposals, the next best way to cultivate these bloodlines is to get in the prostitution business. Find royal bastards, train them to be prostitutes, and then make them available to those with royal, “magical” blood.
Note that Illyrio treats Viserys to his “servants”. And Illyrio treats Tyrion to his “servants”.
”Where do whores go?” He heard himself ask. “Whores are found in brothels here, as in Westeros. You will have no need of such, my little friend. Choose from amongst my serving-women. None will dare refuse you.”
And then we have the Braavosi who specialize in their brothels. And of course there is Littlefinger.
So if Dany’s ability to hatch dragons came from a bit of breeding, it sholdn’t come as a surprise that they may have been breeding bloodlines in whorehouses.