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Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 27, 2016 0:45:02 GMT
And what children were killed prior to the Rebellion? I don't know,but i wonder if Aerys had any bastards he was "offing?" for ritualistic purposes. |
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 27, 2016 1:09:51 GMT
And what children were killed prior to the Rebellion? I don't know,but i wonder if Aerys had any bastards he was "offing?" for ritualistic purposes. I think this is an important clue, and if you've read King Monkeys thread about the tower of joy echoes, the sacrificing of children is one of the repeated elements. KM focuses on giving birth to dragons and he's missing or passing over the parts about sacricing children. |
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 27, 2016 1:33:02 GMT
I've toyed with this idea too but if Lyanna had already flowered wouldn't she have been married to Robert by then. By the time of Harrenhal he's been Lord of Storm's End for 3 years (give or take) and it would be time to get working on producing an heir. You would think she would have flowered by then if she was indeed fourteen at the time of the tourney. Maybe Papa Stark was waiting for the quinceanera.  The roses were meant for Rickard, but Lyanna recieved them in his stead.  Seriously though, I'm thinking the timing of the marriage was important. A time when all the pieces come together; The Stark N Tully match then the Stark N Baratheon. And then... could it have ever been conceived to wed the Lannister and Baratheon pre-war? I'm talking Stannis and Cersei. Crazy thoughts. |
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 27, 2016 1:49:38 GMT
I think this is an important clue, and if you've read King Monkeys thread about the tower of joy echoes, the sacrificing of children is one of the repeated elements. KM focuses on giving birth to dragons and he's missing or passing over the parts about sacricing children. I haven't read it yet,but i should. |
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Post by ac on Aug 27, 2016 2:02:56 GMT
My personal opinion is Aerys. Driving a wedge between Rhaegar and the Starks / Baratheons would help keep Rhaegar's ambitions in check. And he may not have considered it would start a war. As has been pointed out, Brandon's reaction was a bit OTT. Also, and of course this complete speculation, but if Lyanna's kidnappers were impersonating Rhaegar and his crew then Aerys is in about the best position there is to be able to pull that off (not suggesting he did the dead personally). OK, so what would this misdirect add to the story. I mean it is common knowledge that Viserys and Dany escape, why would it matter whether from DS or somewhere else? I've toyed with this idea too but if Lyanna had already flowered wouldn't she have been married to Robert by then. By the time of Harrenhal he's been Lord of Storm's End for 3 years (give or take) and it would be time to get working on producing an heir. Tywin quit his position as Hand and left Kings Landing after Jaime's investiture into the Kingsguard at Harrenhal. He was already angry about Aerys refusal to marry Rhaegar to Cersei especially after saying that dragons didn't marry their servants. He viewed the appointment as if Jaime was Aerys's hostage. Tywin destroys people who mock or slight him as evidenced by his treatment of the Tarbecks and Reynes. In my opinion Tywin had the most to gain by the fall of House Targaryens and he had the biggest grudge to fuel his revenge. Didn't Tywin leave when it was announced i.e. he had already quit by the time of the induction an Harrenhal? I'm also fairly certain that Tywin funded the Harrenhal tourney. The question for me is what he had up his sleeve. |
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Post by ac on Aug 27, 2016 2:04:03 GMT
I think this is an important clue, and if you've read King Monkeys thread about the tower of joy echoes, the sacrificing of children is one of the repeated elements. KM focuses on giving birth to dragons and he's missing or passing over the parts about sacricing children. I haven't read it yet,but i should. If you could share a link to this and the post you mentioned earlier I'd love to read them. |
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 27, 2016 2:28:50 GMT
Answering the original question about GRRM, I don't believe he has lied. Hedged his answers, yes. As others have said, he speaks ASOIAF, in-world truths. Maybe a nugget of clarity here and there, but really you can find the answer in the book text. A SSM that has been brought up in this thread is a good example of telling it like it is in the context of character knowledge, i.e. the age difference between Jon and Daenerys. Fan Question- Martin Answer- Probably closer to 8-9 months than more than a year. Thereabouts. That's not a definitive answer. In the end, it doesn't matter much since George likes to be sly with his answers. And I always enjoy this SSM although we fans never stop.  |
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 27, 2016 2:48:38 GMT
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Post by jnr on Aug 27, 2016 2:54:25 GMT
For the most part, I have viewed the RLJ romantic obsession with amusement. It' the "off the reservation" comment that offends me and requires an answer. This sort of thing irks me too, but I don't think you can get 'em to see reason... however reasonable you may actually be. R+L=J could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and not lose any voters. In late 2014, Snowfyre invested several weeks trying to prove me wrong about this, and I'm not sure that he did. And he is significantly more patient than I am. So at this point, I think the only answer they'll accept... is TWOW. And some of them are likely to reject even that. |
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Post by ac on Aug 27, 2016 3:13:10 GMT
Answering the original question about GRRM, I don't believe he has lied. Hedged his answers, yes. As others have said, he speaks ASOIAF, in-world truths. Maybe a nugget of clarity here and there, but really you can find the answer in the book text. Yeah I think jnr nailed this for me. I'd initially thought of Jon being a bastard as as fixed trait but that is clearly not true in-world. So what GRRM said is true but essentially useless (for my purpose). I agree that GRRM has intentionally made trying to track the timelines down to weeks or even months impossible (where it is important). Although I do think he occasionally breaks this rule when it serves him. |
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Post by ac on Aug 27, 2016 3:14:43 GMT
So at this point, I think the only answer they'll accept... is TWOW. And some of them are likely to reject even that. Hahahaha, well there would still be one more book to come  |
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 27, 2016 4:21:54 GMT
And some of them are likely to reject even that. Likely? Try definitely. Remember all the comments about how should GRRM dare to produce anything other than RLJ at the end, such would only make him a hack writer that abandoned his principles/succumbed to the need of shock value/phoned it in, because obviously there is no other alternative to the conclusion that fans figured out years ago. |
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 27, 2016 4:30:44 GMT
I don't know,but i wonder if Aerys had any bastards he was "offing?" for ritualistic purposes. I had a long detailed theory on this that I posted w/r/t Tyrion as a Targaryen; I'll have to find it. Nutshell, it is very suspicious that a man of Aerys' proclivities in his early adulthood - rival to that of Aegon the Unworthy - produced no known bastards. None. All of his documented children are via Rhaella, and of course most of them didn't make it. Ergo, Aerys was shooting blanks 95% of the time, or he was making sure that no illegitimate dragonseed ever lived to lay claim to the Iron Throne. I wondered if perhaps he - or some other Targaryen with a vested interest - was hunting down his bastard offspring and having them (and their mothers) killed, much like what we see with Cersei and Robert's bastards. Leaving the possibility open to include Rhaella and/or even Rhaegar himself...eliminating competition. That last thought could tie in quite nicely with some ideas I have brewing for the "Wherever Whores Go" thread - and Lyanna possibly spending some time in a brothel. ac might like that notion. |
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Post by min on Aug 27, 2016 10:24:02 GMT
I don't know,but i wonder if Aerys had any bastards he was "offing?" for ritualistic purposes. I think this is an important clue, and if you've read King Monkeys thread about the tower of joy echoes, the sacrificing of children is one of the repeated elements. KM focuses on giving birth to dragons and he's missing or passing over the parts about sacricing children. Which brings Varys to mind. He keeps saying that he is doing what he is doing for the realm; for the children. Given that he doesn't hesitate to use children in the most onerous manner; acquiring them through the slave trade and cutting out their tongues; I have to wonder what he's talking about. What does he do with them when they are too old or too big to run around the ratways behind the walls? |
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Post by min on Aug 27, 2016 10:43:51 GMT
For the most part, I have viewed the RLJ romantic obsession with amusement. It' the "off the reservation" comment that offends me and requires an answer. This sort of thing irks me too, but I don't think you can get 'em to see reason... however reasonable you may actually be. R+L=J could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and not lose any voters. In late 2014, Snowfyre invested several weeks trying to prove me wrong about this, and I'm not sure that he did. And he is significantly more patient than I am. So at this point, I think the only answer they'll accept... is TWOW. And some of them are likely to reject even that. It was never my intent to get them to see reason. It's a given that RLJ is non-negotiable and who cares anyway? It's the cliche and bigotry of the ' reservation' remarks that irks me, ' if you know what I mean'. Ugh! Hey! Tell me what you really think pal. Blech. |
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The roses were meant for Rickard, but Lyanna recieved them in his stead. 
