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Post by min on Aug 28, 2016 11:57:24 GMT
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 28, 2016 13:49:11 GMT
Never read it. Have seen Apocalypse Now, the adaptation. If it's not a long read, I could dig into it.
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Post by min on Aug 28, 2016 14:08:13 GMT
A few hours reading probably. I'm halfway through.
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Post by jnr on Aug 28, 2016 14:17:01 GMT
Have always seen it as curious that BC considers the World book as "confirming" Heart of Darkness as an inspiration for Bran's story, because:
1. GRRM didn't write the World book -- Ran did, and I fear Ran is not the best authority 2. Bran's canonical journey takes place in the far North of Westeros 3. No particular person takes a journey in the World book into the "heart of darkness" -- just "shadowbinders" 4. That heart of darkness is located in Asshai
World book passage reads: And that's it. I note that Bran doesn't go upriver anywhere, at any time, let alone in Asshai, and he isn't a shadowbinder.
Meanwhile, in canon, the phrase "heart of darkness" does occur exactly one time:
But this has nothing to do with Bran's storyline, Conrad's tale, or Apocalypse Now.
So I don't really think there's anything to see here; the whole thing is just a roundabout way for BC to say "I think the CotF are sinister," a favorite theme of his.
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Post by min on Aug 28, 2016 14:56:09 GMT
I haven't read the book until now but looked at Spark Notes for some background. It's Tyrion who is the broken man going down the river of sorrows and meets the fog. He seems to fit the character of Marlowe.
I don't know where BC is coming from at this point about the land beyond this particular wall, unless it's an inversion of Asshai or connected to Asshai in some way. There is the question of why Melisandre is at the wall; why she is so afraid and why see says this is as much her place as Jon's. Ice and fire seem connected at least in the physical description of the wall and by the black gate.
The description of landscape: oppressive, silent, dream-like, whispering, empty,abandoned, a journey into the unknown by the first of men, into ages past. They do travel along frozen rivers, crack the ice for water.
I'm at the place just before Marlowe gets to the inner station and meets Kurtz; the whole purpose of the journey; the man with the secret knowledge around which everything revolves.
I don't have a clue what Bran saw at the top of the world; the terrible knowledge of the third eye. Ravenous Reader thinks passing through the curtain of light is lifting the veil or breaking through the barriers of time. But why north and north and north. I'm reminded of Sam's perception that blank pages in the book are like holes in the world and the maps that Marlowe looks at with their blank places.
So I don't know. It's an interesting read so far; but I'm not far enough in to have much to say about it.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 28, 2016 14:58:46 GMT
Thing is, George is a well-read guy. We could collectively point to 100 different Great American Novels and find parallels with every character in the series. I personally see Dalton Trumbo all over the novels, along with Marvel of course. We can talk about universal archetypes and collective unconsciousness and whatnot as a base for all these shared similarities between various works, but in the end in comes down to one thing: GRRM has sourced from everywhere. Conrad is in there. Trumbo is in there. Thomas Malory, Sun Tzu, Stan Lee, Tolkien, they are all there. In addition, the interpretation of this stuff is subjective as hell, so even if I read HoD from beginning to end five times, I'm probably not going to "see it" the same way as BC will. Some people read a book and see a great eternal struggle with an unobtainable and unyielding representation of the force of evil, some people read it and see a big white whale. Sorry, this just grinds my gears a bit. I grow weary of presenting one angle of the story, be it Trumbo or Marvel or whatever, only to be told, "Well, I don't think we should pigeonhole things into one source....unless it's my favorite source which should be held as the gospel foundation for the entire series."
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Post by min on Aug 28, 2016 15:11:59 GMT
Sorry, this just grinds my gears a bit. I grow weary of presenting one angle of the story, be it Trumbo or Marvel or whatever, only to be told, "Well, I don't think we should pigeonhole things into one source....unless it's my favorite source which should be held as the gospel foundation for the entire series." And the lofty frontal bone of Mr. Kurtz! They say the hair goes on growing sometimes, but this—ah—specimen, was impressively bald. The wilderness had patted him on the head, and, behold, it was like a ball—an ivory ball; it had caressed him, and—lo!—he had withered; it had taken him, loved him, embraced him, got into his veins, consumed his flesh, and sealed his soul to its own by the inconceivable ceremonies of some devilish initiation. LOL! I can never map anything one directly onto the other from any source. I Just note the similarities and see if it triggers any subjective thoughts of my own. Primary I'm interested in any connection with Asshai or inversion of Asshai. j
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 28, 2016 15:17:48 GMT
Primary I'm interested in any connection with Asshai or inversion of Asshai. I'm sure there is one...just like there's one in Svartelfheim, or Mordor, or Anoat, etc.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 28, 2016 15:20:20 GMT
I have read most of Heart of Darkness. I stopped short of the last few chapters because I was bored out of my skull, but I did see some parallels. You are right though to think that Tyrion is just as much Marlow as Bran. BC has been focused on the Wall, Bran, the Nights Watch, and Jon since forever. He will discuss other characters, but it isn't long before it circles back to his favorite topic. It's his thread though and he's focusing on what he likes and he really likes Heart of Darkness. I must admit that it has changed my view of the Long Night, the Battle for the Dawn, and the Others. I tend to wonder if the Long Night was less about years of winter and more so about a period of time the Children experienced great fear. The "Others" then are any strange people that have not assimilated and have terrorized the Children and their allies. The Battle for the Dawn was their "success" in manipulating nature in order to kill these Others. I put success in quotes, because like we've been told multiple times magic is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to wield it. The forging and wielding of three swords is what "broke" the moon, and if we view Planetos as a moon itself, then you don't have to have actual moon meteors falling onto Westeros. You can have volcanoes and tsunamis, etc. Natural but cataclysmic events that wiped out human life.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 28, 2016 15:24:55 GMT
Sorry, this just grinds my gears a bit. I grow weary of presenting one angle of the story, be it Trumbo or Marvel or whatever, only to be told, "Well, I don't think we should pigeonhole things into one source....unless it's my favorite source which should be held as the gospel foundation for the entire series." And the lofty frontal bone of Mr. Kurtz! They say the hair goes on growing sometimes, but this—ah—specimen, was impressively bald. The wilderness had patted him on the head, and, behold, it was like a ball—an ivory ball; it had caressed him, and—lo!—he had withered; it had taken him, loved him, embraced him, got into his veins, consumed his flesh, and sealed his soul to its own by the inconceivable ceremonies of some devilish initiation. LOL! I can never map anything one directly onto the other from any source. I Just note the similarities and see if it triggers any subjective thoughts of my own. Primary I'm interested in any connection with Asshai or inversion of Asshai. j BC uses Kurtz's appearance as a parallel to Bloodraven. That's why he's so convinced that GRRM has used this as inspiration for Bran's journey to see the 3EC, but it can also be Tyrion's journey, and maybe Dany's if she travels to Asshai. We don't know what anyone would find in Asshai, but we're told the brightest lights create the darkest shadows, so Asshai should be the heart of darkness. In the north there's a curtain of light, so how can that be the heart of darkness?
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Post by ac on Aug 28, 2016 15:28:39 GMT
1. GRRM didn't write the World book -- Ran did, and I fear Ran is not the best authority Not that it applies to the part you are talking about but my understanding was that GRRM wrote all of the parts attributed to Gyldayn. Is that right?
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 28, 2016 15:32:14 GMT
The forging and wielding of three swords is what "broke" the moon, and if we view Planetos as a moon itself, then you don't have to have actual moon meteors falling onto Westeros. You can have volcanoes and tsunamis, etc. Natural but cataclysmic events that wiped out human life. Coming back to expand on this thought...Brandon the Builder helped Durran build Storm's End to withstand the angry pounding of storm waves sent by the god of the sea and goddess of the wind as punishment for taking their daughter, Elenei. This is an example of helping an ally to withstand the cataclysmic natural events that were conjured to destroy human life...that is, if the Children's greenseers really do have such powers.
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Post by min on Aug 28, 2016 15:33:41 GMT
Sorry, I'm not trying to upset anyone. At one point I thought Hyperion Cantos had a lot to say about aSoIaF. There is even a reference to the 'shrike and mazebuilders' in the world book. None of which answers any questions. At various points, I have steered clear of all these references because they add confusion. I'm merely curious that's all being unfamiliar with the material. In the north there's a curtain of light, so how can that be the heart of darkness? Light is a metaphor for truth and wisdom; is it not? Dany next phase in her search for truth is to pass beneath the shadow and touch the light. Bran appears to have already done so when he passed through the curtain of light. But the truth is terrifying.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 28, 2016 15:34:35 GMT
1. GRRM didn't write the World book -- Ran did, and I fear Ran is not the best authority Not that it applies to the part you are talking about but my understanding was that GRRM wrote all of the parts attributed to Gyldayn. Is that right? GRRM is a co-author, but it is an in-world history book written by maesters. It's not a factual source that can be used to prove or disprove the books.
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Post by ac on Aug 28, 2016 15:40:05 GMT
Not that it applies to the part you are talking about but my understanding was that GRRM wrote all of the parts attributed to Gyldayn. Is that right? GRRM is a co-author, but it is an in-world history book written by maesters. It's not a factual source that can be used to prove or disprove the books. OK, but it if that is the division of labour then it seems like a strange co-incidence. How would you differentiate between GRRM writing as Gyldane in the World Book vs GRRM writing as Pycelle in GoT?
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