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Post by min on Sept 5, 2016 14:20:33 GMT
Is it possible that Ned knew of Lyanna's pregnancy to Robert all along and he sent her into hiding or at least to the Quiet Isle with Maester Walys? Is this where Jon was born amidst smoke and salt. Did Lyanna die there where "they found him" holding her. And was Maester Walys then instructed to hide Jon for some reason taking him to Castle Wyl where Ned would rather trust a pit viper than Tywin Lannister. Is Maester Walys Flowers the son of Archmaester Walgrave and a noble woman of House Wyl. Wylla of Wyl?
Does the architecture of the Eyre tell us a story about Jon pale and hard as a stone; a stone and a snow by birth:
Stone, the first waycastle. The path to it is surrounded by forest. It has a massive ironbound gate. The stone walls are crowned with iron spikes and its two fat round towers raise above the keep.[2]
Snow, the second waycastle. The trail to it is steeper than that of Stone. It consists of a single fortified tower, a timber keep, and a stable placed behind a low wall of unmortared rock. It is nestled into the Giant's Lance so as to command the entire pathway from Stone to Snow.[2]
Sky, the third waycastle. The path to it is treacherous. It is open to the wind and the steps are cracked and broken from the constant freezing. Sky is a high, crescent-shaped wall of unmortared stone raised against the side of the mountain. Inside the walls are a series of ramps and a great tumble of boulders and stones of all sizes, ready to throw down or even cause a minor avalanche. There is a cavern containing a long natural hall, stables, and supplies. Handholds carved into the rock lead to the Eyrie, while earthen ramps give access to the walls.[2] The Eyrie is located six hundred feet above this point.[9]
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 5, 2016 15:45:44 GMT
Isle of Faces, but wolfmaid meant the Quiet Isle. Nevermind, already answered. Yes and no. While Wolfy clarifying she meant the Quiet Isle, I still didn't realise it stood for Isle of Faces, lol. Thought it was just a typo. I did say it would be summat obvious and I was just being dense.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 5, 2016 16:00:02 GMT
Is it possible that Ned knew of Lyanna's pregnancy to Robert all along and he sent her into hiding or at least to the Quiet Isle with Maester Walys? This is where I think we are getting into Fisherman's Daughter™ territory. It all comes down to 1) the belief that Jon is Lyanna's son, and 2) what you think Jon's true age is. In the story, Jon's nameday seems to fall earlier in the year than Robb's, and of course we are told they are "of an age". Now, we can argue until the cows come home about what that means, but I'll say straight away that I believe that Robb and Jon are indeed very close in age, as in born in 283 only a couple of months apart. (sorry wolfmaid) Jon however is the elder of the two. If this is correct and Jon's nameday falls in late summer sometime (August-ish) whereas Robb's is September/Octoberish, then Jon is perfectly timed to be the Fisherman's Daughter child - conceived around late Q3/early Q4 282 right about the time Ned meets the Fisherman’s Daughter on the way to call his banners, if my calculations are correct. This is several months after Lyanna’s disappearance and shortly before Ned's marriage to Catelyn, close enough to make no real difference in Ned's fib about it. (This is all according to the Rebellion timeline I worked out, btw - totally subject to change with new info) Now, if you think that Lyanna is in fact Jon's mother, and you think that the Fisherman's Daughter Theory™ is valid in that it was some kind of underground smuggling operation, then either Ned impregnated his own sister or the FD was newly pregnant by someone else right at the same time. Enter the Quiet Isle. Ned's supposed route from the Vale back to Winterfell is very "off" - it makes little sense for him to have taken the route he did from the Fingers and still end up shipwrecked in the middle of the Bite. The route makes far more sense if he started from somewhere other than the Eyrie/Fingers, however - and makes perfect sense if he started from the vicinity of Saltpans. George also introduced the FD tale for a reason, and not just as a red herring for Jon's parentage - there is a greater purpose to this story. So that begs the question: would Ned have been dropping someone off at the QI, or picking someone up? This is the part I need to work on a bit more. Obviously this doesn't fly if you think Jon may be way older or that Lyanna isn't his mother. I am going to start a separate thread to work all that out.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Sept 5, 2016 20:29:26 GMT
Is it possible that Ned knew of Lyanna's pregnancy to Robert all along and he sent her into hiding or at least to the Quiet Isle with Maester Walys? Is this where Jon was born amidst smoke and salt. Did Lyanna die there where "they found him" holding her. And was Maester Walys then instructed to hide Jon for some reason taking him to Castle Wyl where Ned would rather trust a pit viper than Tywin Lannister. Is Maester Walys Flowers the son of Archmaester Walgrave and a noble woman of House Wyl. Wylla of Wyl? Does the architecture of the Eyre tell us a story about Jon pale and hard as a stone; a stone and a snow by birth: Stone, the first waycastle. The path to it is surrounded by forest. It has a massive ironbound gate. The stone walls are crowned with iron spikes and its two fat round towers raise above the keep.[2]
Snow, the second waycastle. The trail to it is steeper than that of Stone. It consists of a single fortified tower, a timber keep, and a stable placed behind a low wall of unmortared rock. It is nestled into the Giant's Lance so as to command the entire pathway from Stone to Snow.[2]
Sky, the third waycastle. The path to it is treacherous. It is open to the wind and the steps are cracked and broken from the constant freezing. Sky is a high, crescent-shaped wall of unmortared stone raised against the side of the mountain. Inside the walls are a series of ramps and a great tumble of boulders and stones of all sizes, ready to throw down or even cause a minor avalanche. There is a cavern containing a long natural hall, stables, and supplies. Handholds carved into the rock lead to the Eyrie, while earthen ramps give access to the walls.[2] The Eyrie is located six hundred feet above this point.[9] I don't think he knew about,but i think we have room for an alternate.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Sept 5, 2016 20:47:43 GMT
Is it possible that Ned knew of Lyanna's pregnancy to Robert all along and he sent her into hiding or at least to the Quiet Isle with Maester Walys? This is where I think we are getting into Fisherman's Daughter™ territory. It all comes down to 1) the belief that Jon is Lyanna's son, and 2) what you think Jon's true age is. In the story, Jon's nameday seems to fall earlier in the year than Robb's, and of course we are told they are "of an age". Now, we can argue until the cows come home about what that means, but I'll say straight away that I believe that Robb and Jon are indeed very close in age, as in born in 283 only a couple of months apart. (sorry wolfmaid) Jon however is the elder of the two. If this is correct and Jon's nameday falls in late summer sometime (August-ish) whereas Robb's is September/Octoberish, then Jon is perfectly timed to be the Fisherman's Daughter child - conceived around late Q3/early Q4 282 right about the time Ned meets the Fisherman’s Daughter on the way to call his banners, if my calculations are correct. This is several months after Lyanna’s disappearance and shortly before Ned's marriage to Catelyn, close enough to make no real difference in Ned's fib about it. (This is all according to the Rebellion timeline I worked out, btw - totally subject to change with new info) Now, if you think that Lyanna is in fact Jon's mother, and you think that the Fisherman's Daughter Theory™ is valid in that it was some kind of underground smuggling operation, then either Ned impregnated his own sister or the FD was newly pregnant by someone else right at the same time. Enter the Quiet Isle. Ned's supposed route from the Vale back to Winterfell is very "off" - it makes little sense for him to have taken the route he did from the Fingers and still end up shipwrecked in the middle of the Bite. The route makes far more sense if he started from somewhere other than the Eyrie/Fingers, however - and makes perfect sense if he started from the vicinity of Saltpans. George also introduced the FD tale for a reason, and not just as a red herring for Jon's parentage - there is a greater purpose to this story. So that begs the question: would Ned have been dropping someone off at the QI, or picking someone up? This is the part I need to work on a bit more. Obviously this doesn't fly if you think Jon may be way older or that Lyanna isn't his mother. I am going to start a separate thread to work all that out. No apology is needed its good to talk these things through.I still believe and as i brought up on the "Wrap up thread" i don't think it matters to be honest Jon's age from a social point of view because it can be and was explained away in his bastardry. But while i do like the Harrenhall angle for its symbolic significance i can talk through another possibility.....The Fisherman's daughter is another direct association to Jon as being his mom. That being ,a situation like this and i can't believe i never considered this angle. What if Lyanna after Harrenhall went to the Vale with Ned and Robert.When Aerys called for Ned and Robert's heads ,Robert goes home to call his banners and Ned takes Lyanna back with him both not knowing she was preggers.She may have gotten to Winterfell with Ned and then went to the QI when it became apparent she was preggers. Or Ned may have sent her there then went back there after. What if she was the "Fisherman's daughter" or the Fisherman was smuggling them both across.
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Post by min on Sept 5, 2016 20:56:50 GMT
No apology is needed its good to talk these things through.I still believe and as i brought up on the "Wrap up thread" i don't think it matters to be honest Jon's age from a social point of view because it can be and was explained away in his bastardry. Exactly, it's not a case of putting two infants together for comparison. Aegon can easily pass as someone older especially on a horse and wearing some armor. People see what the want to believe. I imagine Jon spent a lot of time in the kitchen and out of Catelyn's sight. Fudging a bastard's age is as much a part of the subterfuge as hiding his identity. Bastards grow up faster than trueborn kids according to Maester Luwin master of obfuscation.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Sept 5, 2016 21:18:36 GMT
No apology is needed its good to talk these things through.I still believe and as i brought up on the "Wrap up thread" i don't think it matters to be honest Jon's age from a social point of view because it can be and was explained away in his bastardry. Exactly, it's not a case of putting two infants together for comparison. Aegon can easily pass as someone older especially on a horse and wearing some armor. People see what the want to believe. I imagine Jon spent a lot of time in the kitchen and out of Catelyn's sight. Fudging a bastard's age is as much a part of the subterfuge as hiding his identity. Bastards grow up faster than trueborn kids according to Maester Luwin master of obfuscation. True,and like i pointed out this idea that Ned was trying to hide Jon's age is nonsense he actually doesn't need to do that.We already have a story about him getting a woman preggers on the onset of the rebellion.If Jon's looks a bit older when Cat came to Winterfell i as a person with eyes would assume that Ned actually concieved Jon before he married Cat.But its none of my buisness what the frack my Lord does and i aint going to talk to him about it because its none of my buisness . The upside to treating Jon or allowing Jon to be deemed younger protects Robb's status and gives Cat piece of mind that her son's legacy and status is safe...Jon's a bastard and unless there's somekind of advocacy for bastards association then nobody gives a danm what age they give him.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 5, 2016 21:53:08 GMT
What if she was the "Fisherman's daughter" or the Fisherman was smuggling them both across. Take a look at this thread for much more on this thought. I proposed the Fisherman's Daughter Theory™ way back at Westeros with the idea that the whole tale was a front for a human trafficking operation of some sort. It is crackpot but is the one theory of mine that I am 100% certain we will see play out in future books. The Fisherman's Daughter IS somebody...most likely Lyanna or Ashara.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 5, 2016 22:17:05 GMT
If Jon's looks a bit older when Cat came to Winterfell i as a person with eyes would assume that Ned actually concieved Jon before he married Cat.But its none of my buisness what the frack my Lord does and i aint going to talk to him about it because its none of my buisness . The upside to treating Jon or allowing Jon to be deemed younger protects Robb's status and gives Cat piece of mind that her son's legacy and status is safe...Jon's a bastard and unless there's somekind of advocacy for bastards association then nobody gives a danm what age they give him. Yes, this. To an extent Jon can absolutely be older than Robb and most likely is from what I can determine. But, it's close enough to be handwaved away or just politely overlooked because no one is going to get all up in Lord Stark's face about it, like you said. On the other hand I do say "to an extent" because the whole "I did a bad" from Ned about baby Jon has to be believable to Catelyn first and foremost, followed by Robert and everyone else he's telling the lie to. Ned can fudge a few months with no real problem, which means Jon as the Fisherman's Daughter baby can pass muster, but Jon as the Harrenhal baby or worse the real Aegon just won't work. The age gap is just too huge to be ignored even under the social standards of the day. Ned couldn't bring back a 2yo and tell Cat "Here's my kid I fathered after we married last year, sorry" and have her both accept it and believe it in her own POV. That's the key for me - Catelyn buys the lie in her own internal monologues. Had we gotten something in her POV to the tune of "Ned said he fathered Jon whilst on campaign, but when she saw the two boys side by side she knew in her heart it was a lie" I would lean more toward Jon and Robb being further apart in age, but since Cat herself doesn't seem to smell anything rotten in Denmark, I lean toward them being only a couple of months apart. That being said, there is the possibility that the phrase "of an age" is a very loose approximation, and that Jon was still "a babe at the breast" needing a wet nurse the way a 1+yo Aegon was "a babe at the breast" when Ned brought him back to Winterfell. However, that contradicts Ned's lie that he fathered Jon on campaign and Cat's belief that it happened after their marriage, and we are right back where we started. I won't rule it out, but for me I needed a bit more from Cat's perspective that hinted she thought Ned was BSing her about Jon's age. Since we don't get that it leads me to believe that they're fairly close.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Sept 5, 2016 22:38:58 GMT
Take a look at this thread for much more on this thought. I proposed the Fisherman's Daughter Theory™ way back at Westeros with the idea that the whole tale was a front for a human trafficking operation of some sort. It is crackpot but is the one theory of mine that I am 100% certain we will see play out in future books. The Fisherman's Daughter IS somebody...most likely Lyanna or Ashara. On the other hand I do say "to an extent" because the whole " I did a bad" from Ned about baby Jon has to be believable to Catelyn first and foremost, followed by Robert and everyone else he's telling the lie to. Ned can fudge a few months with no real problem, which means Jon as the Fisherman's Daughter baby can pass muster, but Jon as the Harrenhal baby or worse the real Aegon just won't work. The age gap is just too huge to be ignored even under the social standards of the day. Ned couldn't bring back a 2yo and tell Cat "Here's my kid I fathered after we married last year, sorry" and have her both accept it and believe it in her own POV. That's the key for me - Catelyn buys the lie in her own internal monologues. This here i think is the thing though and that is the idea that Ned had that conversation with Cat or anyone about Jon's age vs just allowing Jon to be treated as if he were younger.This premise i think is incorrect....Remember every story gives Ned a cover where he doesn't need to say anything about when Jon was actually concieved. The Fisherman's story creates the out that Ned fathered Jon before he married Cat,Ashara wasn't nailed down at Starfall according to GRRM and again creates and out that Ned could have fathered Jon before or after Cat.We have no idea where Wylla would have come in but the same applies. Jon was treated as if he were younger beacuse that helped Robb but there was questions concerning this i'm 100% sure else we would have gotten the "Luuwin says bastards grow up faster" Someone said something and Luuwin explained it away in the old bastard contingency. You see what i'm saying about Ned not having to volunteer any info about when Jon was concieved?
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Post by min on Sept 5, 2016 22:39:12 GMT
That being said, there is the possibility that the phrase "of an age" is a very loose approximation, and that Jon was still "a babe at the breast" needing a wet nurse the way a 1+yo Aegon was "a babe at the breast" when Ned brought him back to Winterfell. However, that contradicts Ned's lie that he fathered Jon on campaign and Cat's belief that it happened after their marriage, and we are right back where we started. I won't rule it out, but for me I needed a bit more from Cat's perspective that hinted she thought Ned was BSing her about Jon's age. Since we don't get that it leads me to believe that they're fairly close. Is this ruling out Robert as father. Because that could have happened around the time of Harrenhal with less than a years difference between Rob and Jon. However, if she suspects that Ned is the father because he has the 'bastard' look; that might explain the lie she tells herself and her unreasonable hatred towards Jon. Not to mention Jaime wondering who the hell Stark thinks he is judging him or Cersei's comment that she's seen Ned son along with her taunting and scornful remarks about Ashara. The problem is that I think there has to be Robert's son because that connects him to the ancient Gardener bloodline through the Baratheons. It's not a mistake that the Red Lot are looking for AA in that bloodline. It's the Horned Lord/Storm Lord connection that Jon fits and the reason Melisandre keeps seeing him in her fire instead of Stannis.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Sept 5, 2016 23:21:04 GMT
That being said, there is the possibility that the phrase "of an age" is a very loose approximation, and that Jon was still "a babe at the breast" needing a wet nurse the way a 1+yo Aegon was "a babe at the breast" when Ned brought him back to Winterfell. However, that contradicts Ned's lie that he fathered Jon on campaign and Cat's belief that it happened after their marriage, and we are right back where we started. I won't rule it out, but for me I needed a bit more from Cat's perspective that hinted she thought Ned was BSing her about Jon's age. Since we don't get that it leads me to believe that they're fairly close. Is this ruling out Robert as father. Because that could have happened around the time of Harrenhal with less than a years difference between Rob and Jon. However, if she suspects that Ned is the father because he has the 'bastard' look; that might explain the lie she tells herself and her unreasonable hatred towards Jon. Not to mention Jaime wondering who the hell Stark thinks he is judging him or Cersei's comment that she's seen Ned son along with her taunting and scornful remarks about Ashara. The problem is that I think there has to be Robert's son because that connects him to the ancient Gardener bloodline through the Baratheons. It's not a mistake that the Red Lot are looking for AA in that bloodline. It's the Horned Lord/Storm Lord connection that Jon fits and the reason Melisandre keeps seeing him in her fire instead of Stannis. Nah i don't think it rules out Robert,as i said this entire idea of Jon's age partially rests on the notion that Ned told Cat or anyone Jon's age.He didn't.Consider this: "That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word...finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “ Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. " He is my blood, and that is all you need to know." (AGOT) From this we know that this is the first time Cat asked Ned about Jon( she got shot down) When i brought this up the rebuttal was " well it doesn't say anything about Ned telling her first." No it doesn't but a thinking person would be able to know if he had told her anything she wouldn't be asking him anything. Ned told Cat all she needed to know was Jon was his blood..She didn't need to know anything else and she didn't know anything else.She just created what happened out of what she heard and what she wanted to believe. Ned didn't tell anyone anything about Jon.He just let everyone believe what they want from the tales that was floating around.He didn't need to pass off Jon as a younger child because he didn't need to.
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Post by min on Sept 5, 2016 23:34:41 GMT
Ned didn't tell anyone anything about Jon.He just let everyone believe what they want from the tales that was floating around.He didn't need to pass off Jon as a younger child because he didn't need to. Yes, that reaction from Ned. He made Cat renew her pledge of obedience and the she says that all talk stopped afterwards. He also have Harwin warnng Arya quite fervently no to mention Wyla to her. So I wonder if it was Cat who stopped all the talk given Harwin's warning to Arya. As a boy at Winterfell, he would have seen it first hand. 'He is my blood' could represent blood ties to Lyanna of course; but he is vehement that Cat believe that Jon is HIS son and not Roberts. How does this protect Jon? Because I'm certain that Ned took a pledge to protect Jon. Whats with all of Ned's buried rage that he reacts in a way that frightens Catelyn?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 6, 2016 0:56:55 GMT
You see what i'm saying about Ned not having to volunteer any info about when Jon was concieved? No, I do, I get it. Ned is the Lord of Winterfell, he don't owe nobody nuthin'. He could have very well told Cat to just shut it when he walked in with baby Jon. But, I'm not getting the impression that he did that. But, maybe he did, and maybe Cat just assumed that he fathered this kid on campaign. However, I think she is able to assume this without Ned saying a word because she is able to visually confirm that Jon is around Robb's age or thereabouts and not some other age considerably older than her own son. If Jon had been fathered upon Lyanna by Robert prior to her disappearance (like at Harrenhal), at minimum he would have been close to 2 years old by the time Cat got to Winterfell. Even without Ned offering up any info she would easily be able to tell that this bastard babe is not anywhere close in age to her own child and therefore was not fathered while Ned was off warring in the south during the first year of their marriage. We have no indication that this was the case. Also, GRRM went to some effort to tell us through various POVs that Jon and Robb are very close in age. I think he went to that trouble because he wants readers to understand that they are close in age, not to pull the wool over everyone's eyes until he reveals sometime in Book 9 that Jon is actually 3 years older than Robb and no one realized it. I think readers could get behind Jon turning out to be slightly older because it's still consistent with the narrative; to make Jon considerably older requires a LOT of retconning on George's part, something he said he wouldn't do. anwyay, just my two cents. I won't quibble over it. I question parentage and have all kinds of crackpots about Jon, but I do take his age at relative face value. I know not everyone will though.
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Post by min on Sept 6, 2016 1:18:46 GMT
anwyay, just my two cents. I won't quibble over it. I question parentage and have all kinds of crackpots about Jon, but I do take his age at relative face value. I know not everyone will though. But when did he marry Cat. I'm under the impression that she didn't go to Winterfell immediately, delivered Rob at Riverrun and Jon was already at Winterfell when she arrived. Didn't she arrive at the end of the war? I guess I've assumed that there wasn't a very long time in between Brandon's death and Ned's wedding to Catelyn. Brandon died in 282. I thought shortly after the tourney at Harrenhal. The Tourney was in 281. I agree that Jon is around the same age as Robb. I guess I'm not understanding the problem in the timeline.
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