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Post by wolfmaid7 on Sept 6, 2016 1:24:53 GMT
No, I do, I get it. Ned is the Lord of Winterfell, he don't owe nobody nuthin'. He could have very well told Cat to just shut it when he walked in with baby Jon. But, I'm not getting the impression that he did that. But, maybe he did, and maybe Cat just assumed that he fathered this kid on campaign. However, I think she is able to assume this without Ned saying a word because she is able to visually confirm that Jon is around Robb's age or thereabouts and not some other age considerably older than her own son. If Jon had been fathered upon Lyanna by Robert prior to her disappearance (like at Harrenhal), at minimum he would have been close to 2 years old by the time Cat got to Winterfell. Even without Ned offering up any info she would easily be able to tell that this bastard babe is not anywhere close in age to her own child and therefore was not fathered while Ned was off warring in the south during the first year of their marriage. We have no indication that this was the case. Also, GRRM went to some effort to tell us through various POVs that Jon and Robb are very close in age. I think he went to that trouble because he wants readers to understand that they are close in age, not to pull the wool over everyone's eyes until he reveals sometime in Book 9 that Jon is actually 3 years older than Robb and no one realized it. I think readers could get behind Jon turning out to be slightly older because it's still consistent with the narrative; to make Jon considerably older requires a LOT of retconning on George's part, something he said he wouldn't do. anwyay, just my two cents. I won't quibble over it. I question parentage and have all kinds of crackpots about Jon, but I do take his age at relative face value. I know not everyone will though. I think i'm just picturing alot more variables....We know Jon and his wetnurse was already at WF when Cat came.After a while of Ned not saying anything about Jon she asked him and he responded with the above quote and that was the end of that.Thus leaving her in a state of not knowing and everyone free to make up whatever they wanted to about Jon's age. Also,it is clear from Luuwin's statement that some kind of talk about that arose at Winterfell and it was explained away unreasonably but its a superstitious society with some weird ideologies. As to the whole Jon and Robb being of the same age i think we have to consider at the time such statements were being made it really doesn't matter.They could actually look of an age.And we have seen where for instance Tyrion was way off the mark,by two years,but what are they looking at when they make these determinations. Height,built? Food for thought
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 6, 2016 2:16:24 GMT
Thing is we have two instances that suggest Jon, or rather Ned's bastard, was conceived on campaign.
First we have Ned getting grumpy at Robert for reminding him that he had dishonoured himself, Catelyn and the gods by fathering a bastard. This suggests he was already married or else he wouldn't mention Catelyn in the statement. But Ned being Ned, I would imagine just being pledged to Cat is enough for him to feel he cheated. Pledges in real life during the middle ages were seen as being just as binding as marriages.
Second we have Cat's recollection that she heard of Ned's having fathered a bastard within their first year of marriage. Now I don't know how fast news travels in Westeros during war time, but she goes on to say that she didn't really care much since her head was full of infant Robb. That puts this bastard's birth anywhere within that first year. Either she got the news no sooner the child was born, or the child was born earlier and she only learned about it after Robb was born.
Point being, Jon or Ned's bastard could be older than Robb. The narrative definitely allows for it. It actually works better if Ned's bastard was conceived during his betrothal to Cat because he wasn't surrounded by men that would know he didn't break his vows to his wife and then look at each other sideways when the Lord of WF comes home with an immaculately conceived child of his own.
Additionally there is only ever talk of Ned being with one woman, Ashara, and the men on campaign with him would know if there was another woman. Yet they come home from campaign and the only woman they whisper about, that Cat ends up hearing about too, is Ashara.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 6, 2016 2:27:41 GMT
That being said, there is the possibility that the phrase "of an age" is a very loose approximation, and that Jon was still "a babe at the breast" needing a wet nurse the way a 1+yo Aegon was "a babe at the breast" when Ned brought him back to Winterfell. However, that contradicts Ned's lie that he fathered Jon on campaign and Cat's belief that it happened after their marriage, and we are right back where we started. I won't rule it out, but for me I needed a bit more from Cat's perspective that hinted she thought Ned was BSing her about Jon's age. Since we don't get that it leads me to believe that they're fairly close. Is this ruling out Robert as father. Because that could have happened around the time of Harrenhal with less than a years difference between Rob and Jon. However, if she suspects that Ned is the father because he has the 'bastard' look; that might explain the lie she tells herself and her unreasonable hatred towards Jon. Not to mention Jaime wondering who the hell Stark thinks he is judging him or Cersei's comment that she's seen Ned son along with her taunting and scornful remarks about Ashara. The problem is that I think there has to be Robert's son because that connects him to the ancient Gardener bloodline through the Baratheons. It's not a mistake that the Red Lot are looking for AA in that bloodline. It's the Horned Lord/Storm Lord connection that Jon fits and the reason Melisandre keeps seeing him in her fire instead of Stannis. How are the Baratheons connected to House Gardner? My suspicion is that Jon as the Corn King will probably end up being some type of sacrifice at the end of the story, and if Melisandre is to be believed, the more King's Blood, the more potent the magic. So I do think Jon is probably the repository of a lot of different King's Blood. Now my suspicion is that Jenny is Jon's grandmother, and she may supply the Gardner King bloodline. Which may explain her tagline, Jenny with Flowers in her hair, House Gardner's crown being a wreath of flowers. According to the World's Book, she claims to be a descendent from First Men Kings, so perhaps she is from a maternal line of House Gardner.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 6, 2016 2:41:37 GMT
But when did he marry Cat. I'm under the impression that she didn't go to Winterfell immediately, delivered Rob at Riverrun and Jon was already at Winterfell when she arrived. Didn't she arrive at the end of the war? I guess I've assumed that there wasn't a very long time in between Brandon's death and Ned's wedding to Catelyn. Brandon died in 282. I thought shortly after the tourney at Harrenhal. The Tourney was in 281. The timeline that I worked out - which could very well be wrong - has the tourney in the 4th quarter of 281, Lyanna's disappearance sometime early in Q2 282, Brandon's death in early Q3 282, Fisherman's Daughter in late Q3 282, and Battle of the Bells followed by Ned's wedding to Cat in Q1 283. I would guesstimate at least 6 months between the tourney and Lyanna's disappearance, and another 6 months between Brandon's death and Ned's wedding. Robb is born in late 283 and Ned would be back at Winterfell by Q1 284, approximately one year after marrying Cat. I suspect that Robb was between 3 and 6 months old when Ned returned from Dorne, and Jon somewhere between 5-8 months.
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Post by min on Sept 6, 2016 3:23:24 GMT
How are the Baratheons connected to House Gardner? I believe they are connected through the Durrandon line to the Gardeners. I could be wrong. I'm sure I read somewhere in the wiki that the Baratheons Stormlords were connected to the Garth the Gardener. But I'll see if I can find it. I suspect that Robb was between 3 and 6 months old when Ned returned from Dorne, and Jon somewhere between 5-8 months. When did the false spring occur. Does that place the tourney in the first or second Q 281.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 6, 2016 3:34:03 GMT
When did the false spring occur. Does that place the tourney in the first or second Q 281. The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city. As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. To me, this sounds as though the false spring occurred in the latter part of the year, what with lasting only two months and winter returning at the end of the year. I would place the tourney in either very late Q3 or early Q4. Extra irony if the typical May Day Beltane celebration actually happened on Samhain (Oct 31-Nov 1). I wonder if the gods would be pissed at that?
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Post by min on Sept 6, 2016 3:41:49 GMT
So then it makes sense that Jon and Rob are of an age. Interesting, the only thing we have for her death is ToJ 283 but I think it was earlier at the Salt Pans. I don't think she was ever at the ToJ. So she could have died 282 and been buried in the crypt before Catelyn arrives at Winterfell. She never says anything about Lyanna buried in the crypt as far as I can recall.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 6, 2016 3:43:37 GMT
I am actually now quite interested in the impact of Beltane rituals being performed on a different sacred day, so am tagging wolfmaid7 and freyfamilyreunion on that one. From a religious standpoint, other than general confusion, what would practitioners see as a consequence to not honoring the correct 'season' (spring fertility vs. winter preservation) with a sacred ritual?
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Post by jnr on Sept 6, 2016 4:07:00 GMT
To me, this sounds as though the false spring occurred in the latter part of the year Yes, it does. This is a bit awkward re Elia's pregnancy, though. ETA: I see you're already considering everything I wrote below in some depth in the Rebellion Babies thread. If Elia had already had Aegon by Harrenhal, it seems doubtful she could have been there in person given how extremely difficult his birth was. If Elia had Aegon after Harrenhal, then she was far into her pregnancy at Harrenhal, which... again seems doubtful given how frail she was supposed to be and the lack of any such reference, for instance in the tale of the KotLT. I'm not sure there's any explanation that works with Aegon being (per GRRM) about a year old at the time of the Sack since that would mean he was born well after Rhaegar left Dragonstone. And yet the World book says: Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road If however we simply consider the World book a piece of crap, these issues vanish. We are left with GRRM's canon and SSM, which are not difficult to reconcile at all.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Sept 6, 2016 6:10:45 GMT
Thing is we have two instances that suggest Jon, or rather Ned's bastard, was conceived on campaign. First we have Ned getting grumpy at Robert for reminding him that he had dishonoured himself, Catelyn and the gods by fathering a bastard. This suggests he was already married or else he wouldn't mention Catelyn in the statement. But Ned being Ned, I would imagine just being pledged to Cat is enough for him to feel he cheated. Pledges in real life during the middle ages were seen as being just as binding as marriages. Second we have Cat's recollection that she heard of Ned's having fathered a bastard within their first year of marriage. Now I don't know how fast news travels in Westeros during war time, but she goes on to say that she didn't really care much since her head was full of infant Robb. That puts this bastard's birth anywhere within that first year. Either she got the news no sooner the child was born, or the child was born earlier and she only learned about it after Robb was born. Point being, Jon or Ned's bastard could be older than Robb. The narrative definitely allows for it. It actually works better if Ned's bastard was conceived during his betrothal to Cat because he wasn't surrounded by men that would know he didn't break his vows to his wife and then look at each other sideways when the Lord of WF comes home with an immaculately conceived child of his own. Additionally there is only ever talk of Ned being with one woman, Ashara, and the men on campaign with him would know if there was another woman. Yet they come home from campaign and the only woman they whisper about, that Cat ends up hearing about too, is Ashara. Ohhh but let's look at these quotes again: Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. The way this reads to me is in the first year of her marrige she found out Ned fathered a child chance met on campaign,not she learned that Ned had fathered a child during their first year of marriage. Then we have his conversation with Ned and Robert. "You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" "Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her." "Wylla, yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like..." Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men." The take away from this to me is Ned had a liason with a woman whom Robert thought was Jon's mother.They continue talking about her to which Ned asked Robert to leave it alone because he dishonored himself and Cat.But again,Ned doesn't tell Robert Wylla is Jon's mother.This centers on a woman that Ned may or may not have had a relationship with.Someone may have seen Ned with a woman and that would be enough to set tounges wagging. On the otherhand it seems like playing locate the babies dead,live and swapped. I am actually now quite interested in the impact of Beltane rituals being performed on a different sacred day, so am tagging wolfmaid7 and freyfamilyreunion on that one. From a religious standpoint, other than general confusion, what would practitioners see as a consequence to not honoring the correct 'season' (spring fertility vs. winter preservation) with a sacred ritual? By that you mean the "great rite" which it in itself can take place at any time,more most often when a coven needs intervention in the time of crisis.So its not limited to Beltane.It is different than say a normal fertility ritual that's done just to celebrate the union of the god and goddess and all the stuff that comes along with the new.This is high magic done when the coven is in peril/crisis and we want to draw on the energy from the union to avert,stop or change something.
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Post by min on Sept 6, 2016 11:29:14 GMT
Is this ruling out Robert as father. Because that could have happened around the time of Harrenhal with less than a years difference between Rob and Jon. However, if she suspects that Ned is the father because he has the 'bastard' look; that might explain the lie she tells herself and her unreasonable hatred towards Jon. Not to mention Jaime wondering who the hell Stark thinks he is judging him or Cersei's comment that she's seen Ned son along with her taunting and scornful remarks about Ashara. The problem is that I think there has to be Robert's son because that connects him to the ancient Gardener bloodline through the Baratheons. It's not a mistake that the Red Lot are looking for AA in that bloodline. It's the Horned Lord/Storm Lord connection that Jon fits and the reason Melisandre keeps seeing him in her fire instead of Stannis. How are the Baratheons connected to House Gardner? My suspicion is that Jon as the Corn King will probably end up being some type of sacrifice at the end of the story, and if Melisandre is to be believed, the more King's Blood, the more potent the magic. So I do think Jon is probably the repository of a lot of different King's Blood. Now my suspicion is that Jenny is Jon's grandmother, and she may supply the Gardner King bloodline. Which may explain her tagline, Jenny with Flowers in her hair, House Gardner's crown being a wreath of flowers. According to the World's Book, she claims to be a descendent from First Men Kings, so perhaps she is from a maternal line of House Gardner. I guess I'm thinking in terms of ancient magical bloodlines going back to the age of heros. Three houses are associated with the CotF and/or Bran the builder; The Gardeners, The Starks and the Durrandons (Baratheon's). The magic warding at Storm's end must have some purpose. I think I read that the Gardener's intermarried with all the original great houses at some point. There is the imagery of the wild hunt associated with the storm lords; the green armor and golden antlers. An allusion to the green men perhaps with it's association with House Gardner and the knights of the green hand; the crown of grass and flowers. The fertility sacrifice of the Corn King. How does Jenny fit in?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 6, 2016 13:45:59 GMT
The way this reads to me is in the first year of her marrige she found out Ned fathered a child chance met on campaign,not she learned that Ned had fathered a child during their first year of marriage. The only issue is that is the next part of the sentence is overlooked (my emphasis in blue): Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. She clearly believes that Jon is the result of Ned meeting his "man's needs" during the year they were apart. It is different than say a normal fertility ritual that's done just to celebrate the union of the god and goddess and all the stuff that comes along with the new. So from a religious worship perspective, there would be no harm no foul if a Beltane fertility ritual was performed at Samhain, and the "spring gods" honored instead of the Aos Si or other spirits that should be appeased? I'm just wondering if there would be some impact in a fantasy story if people unintentionally celebrated the wrong thing at the wrong time, maybe letting the wrong gods wander through the veil. All about letting a certain type of magic into the world at the wrong time. Does that make sense?
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Post by min on Sept 6, 2016 14:24:55 GMT
He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. I've always thought that Catelyn just assumes this about Ned. She really didn't know him. After all, he's the shy wolf afraid to ask a lady to dance. Doesn't Catelyn also say that the Starks are not like other men later?
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 6, 2016 14:51:20 GMT
How are the Baratheons connected to House Gardner? My suspicion is that Jon as the Corn King will probably end up being some type of sacrifice at the end of the story, and if Melisandre is to be believed, the more King's Blood, the more potent the magic. So I do think Jon is probably the repository of a lot of different King's Blood. Now my suspicion is that Jenny is Jon's grandmother, and she may supply the Gardner King bloodline. Which may explain her tagline, Jenny with Flowers in her hair, House Gardner's crown being a wreath of flowers. According to the World's Book, she claims to be a descendent from First Men Kings, so perhaps she is from a maternal line of House Gardner. I guess I'm thinking in terms of ancient magical bloodlines going back to the age of heros. Three houses are associated with the CotF and/or Bran the builder; The Gardeners, The Starks and the Durrandons (Baratheon's). The magic warding at Storm's end must have some purpose. I think I read that the Gardener's intermarried with all the original great houses at some point. There is the imagery of the wild hunt associated with the storm lords; the green armor and golden antlers. An allusion to the green men perhaps with it's association with House Gardner and the knights of the green hand; the crown of grass and flowers. The fertility sacrifice of the Corn King. How does Jenny fit in? Part of my theory that Jon may be Howland Reed's son, rests on the premise that Jenny of Oldstones escaped Summerhall pregnant with Duncan the Small's child (Duncan the Small aka Duncan Targaryen aka the Dragonfly), and that Jenny of Oldstones was a crannog girl.
In my theory, Howland would be Jenny's child. Which would give Jon a connection to the Targaryens just not the one that everyone assumes. The reason I think a Targaryen connection may be important for Jon, is because it gives him the source of a lot of different Kingsblood, since House Targaryen married into so many other houses, including Martell (Rhoyner blood), Dayne, and Blackwood. If Jenny is a descendent of First Men Kings and if those kings happen to be House Gardner (through a maternal line) then it gives yet another sources of King's blood for Jon.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 6, 2016 15:10:55 GMT
Ohhh but let's look at these quotes again: Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. The way this reads to me is in the first year of her marrige she found out Ned fathered a child chance met on campaign,not she learned that Ned had fathered a child during their first year of marriage. Then we have his conversation with Ned and Robert. "You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" "Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her." "Wylla, yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like..." Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men." The take away from this to me is Ned had a liason with a woman whom Robert thought was Jon's mother.They continue talking about her to which Ned asked Robert to leave it alone because he dishonored himself and Cat.But again,Ned doesn't tell Robert Wylla is Jon's mother.This centers on a woman that Ned may or may not have had a relationship with.Someone may have seen Ned with a woman and that would be enough to set tounges wagging. On the otherhand it seems like playing locate the babies dead,live and swapped. That's what I'm saying, Cat heard the news that Ned had fathered a child within their first year of marriage. That does not mean the child was conceived during that first year. It could've been before they were married, while they were betrothed. And if that's the case, it would fit into the timeline of the Fisherman's Daughter. I'm not saying I think the FD is our Jon's mother, I'm saying that Martin put that in there to fit within the timeline, a red herring. Ned would never leave a woman with a child in her belly and just give her a bag of silver. However, Ned would do that if Robert was the father of that bastard though. Just look at how he tells Gendry to come find him should he ever want for anything, and how he asked Mott if there was any payments to be made in order for the boy to keep his apprenticeship. The only issue is that is the next part of the sentence is overlooked (my emphasis in blue): She clearly believes that Jon is the result of Ned meeting his "man's needs" during the year they were apart. As I said above, Ned running off to call the banners is the beginning of the campaign, so technically Cat would be correct. Arryn declared war the moment he refused to handover Ned and Robert. This is also when Ned takes on his brother's title and his bride, so Ned was betrothed when he got caught on the Sisters. If Wylla is a northerner, as I suspect, then Ned could've actually father a child on her, making what he tells Robert the truth. It's repeatedly said that Ned can't lie to Robert, but he can hide the truth behind a different truth, like we see him do on Robert's death bed. Now if Wylla was pregnant with Ned's child, he may have sent her to the only other place he thought she might be safe outside Winterfell, to Starfall. There is already a connection there between Ned's admiration of Arthur, Brandon's apparent friendliness with Ashara, and of course Ned's connection with Ashara. I don't think for a minute that the Starks are any different to other lords that father bastards. They take care of them, if they're decent, but they don't bring them home to be raised with their lawful children. That is just Cat's assumption, I think. Jon was brought home for another reason, not because the Starks keep their bastards as a matter of course. The problem is, and for me always has been, what became of Ned's bastard? Was it stillborn, which would allow for Wylla to still have milk? Is s/he living out life somewhere in disguise? Was it the child swapped for Aegon and that's why Ned feels so much hate for what was done by the Lannisters? I've been puzzling over this for years and not gotten to any firm conclusions.
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