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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 8, 2016 15:23:30 GMT
Just noticed this as well.
“It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, [...]”
Rhaegar became persuaded. Persuaded, past tense of persuade: cause (someone) to do something through reasoning or argument; cause (someone) to believe something, especially after a sustained effort; convince; (of a situation or event) provide a sound reason for (someone) to do something.
Who persuaded him??
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Sept 8, 2016 15:24:56 GMT
One of the things that this thread has made me consider is the idea that Rhaegar may not have actually had any children of his own. Also, GRRM loves wonky solutions to prophecies. TPTWP is premised on the idea that he/she would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. It wouldn't surprise me if TPTWP turns out to be multiple persons, perhaps one from Aerys line and one from Rhaella, but not born to both. I've theorized that Aerys may have been the actual father to Elia and perhaps Oberyn. We know that Rhaella was a bit miffed that he whored around with her ladies in waiting. GRRM is hinting too strongly that it was with Joanna, so I wonder if he is deflecting suspicion to the lady in waiting he was truly having a fling with, Doran's mother, the unnamed princess in Dorne. Which may explain why Aerys consents to allowing Rhaegar to marry Elia, when he previously sent Steffon on a fruitless search to find a suitably Valyrian bride for Rhaegar. Elia may end up sufficing if Aerys knows that she is his daughter. Now if Oberyn is Aerys son as well... It would be very Targaryen of Elia and Oberyn to have a couple of kids together. One kid with their dominant Dornish genes and one kid with their recessive Targaryen ones. So perhaps Aegon was actually the son of Oberyn and Elia. Crackpot I know. So then I would turn to Rahella, and wonder if perhaps she had a child with a different father. Perhaps Gerold Hightower, who was so eager to return to King's Landing to guard the queen, in lieu of Jaime?? Perhaps with a Lord Velaryon, who had at least one bastard son who reminded Cersei of Rhaegar? Right, I put Rhaegar in the same position as Renly, if you pardon the terrible pun - will marry and procreate for the sake of the realm, but his real interests lay elsewhere. I don't think the issue was that he couldn't or wouldn't bed his wife if push came to shove, but there's always the chance he found a workaround. Perhaps he and Elia both did. I can't help but think of the tower of joy here. Rhaegar would leave his fortress of solitude (Summerhall) to meet up with his kingsguard buddies at the tower, aka the meeting place. Meaning that they agreed someone else would sleep with her repeatedly, over multiple years, and the three of them would then pretend any resulting children were Rhaegar's? It's possible -- what would the motive be? Just to get him out of bedroom duties? I think the odds are high Rhaegar didn't often worry about those anyway, because he knew exactly which night it was that Aegon was conceived. Whereas if he had asked a stand-in to do this on his behalf, the stand-in would have needed to get busy on a regular basis, to increase the odds of offspring, making it far harder to pinpoint conception. This is an angle that doesn't get enough "play" and i think a big reason is the image of Rhaegar by a lot of the fandom.Bringing that up left a few of us...I think it was Snowy with scorched bums on the RLJ thread.But i think there's a good chance what JNR said was true...Rhaegar may have been more partial to the "butt end of a sword" and he did do his duty with regard to fathering his children. However,i love Some pig's surrogate idea and believe it could work if Rhaegar doesn't think he had to be the father of the trio or all of them.For all we know he could have been collecting babies for him and Elia to raise as the Dragon heads. But,i think the more likely case is Rhaegar because of what he read went against his nature to father his children Rhaenys,Aegon and Dany. Possibly two with Elia,but most likely Dany with Ashara as a surrogate when it would serve being to dangerous for Elia to get preggers. Yes, for all I know, Brienne could be the one (re)born amidst salt and smoke at the QI or that Arthur Dayne found Lyanna and hid her rather than Rhaegar. But yes, I still think Jon is Robert's son. Whether she loved him or not and had misgivings about Robert's fidelity; there just has to be an opportunity for intimate relations before marriage. It's not like it could never happen. Lyanna's death is the other choke point since the accepted conclusion is that she died after giving birth to Jon at the end of the war. You can't convince anyone that she died of fever or illness with the bed of blood reference. The Snow-Storm bastardy is too good a fit to pass up; along with the Baratheon words "ours is the fury." I can believe that Rhaegar never had any kids; that Dany is the daughter of Aerys and Ashara still works for me. If Brienne is the example of a true knight; pledged to protect the weak and defenseless; I can see this being true for Arthur. That he might have rescued, hidden and protected Lyanna without telling Rhaegar also makes some sense to me. This might explain why Ned feels shame and reverence for Arthur. We're also told that there is no stain on Ned's name for anything that have happened between him and Ashara at the tourney. So why would Ned feel betrayed by Robert for a liaison with Lyanna if he even knew about it at all? How many babies are concieved before men go to war? Ned only feels that he dishonored Catelyn after their marriage. As she puts it, for taking solace in another woman. This has nothing to do with battle lust; more likely shared grief. True,true.Prophecies are really strange in this world...The nature of things being as it is.Dany turning out to be TPTWP wouldn't suprise me,nor would Bran.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 8, 2016 17:26:45 GMT
I think the odds are high Rhaegar didn't often worry about those anyway, because he knew exactly which night it was that Aegon was conceived. Whereas if he had asked a stand-in to do this on his behalf, the stand-in would have needed to get busy on a regular basis, to increase the odds of offspring, making it far harder to pinpoint conception. Speaking as a father, I couldn't tell you when my son was conceived; my wife worked that out with her doctor. Either Rhaegar sat down with parchment and quill, counting days since Elia's last cycle, and checking meticulous records of all their encounters, or they two were on a schedule. I prefer the later. 'Ok it's a new moon, brace yourself Elia...Right see you at the half moon.' If that's the case, then a stand in would work perfectly well. Rhaegar could've poked [fill-in's name here] in the ribs with his elbow, 'Oi, Arthur. I'm not up to it tonight mate, you'll have to fill in for me.' And the comet over head heralded the comet blade's wielder to do his duty for the realm.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Sept 8, 2016 17:30:54 GMT
An obvious answer is Aemon. Another possibility is the ghost of High Heart who I believe is the reason Rhaegar hoofed it to the Riverlands after the False Spring. Not to mention signs and portents like the comet that was seen on Aegon's conception day. (the timing of the comet seems to be worked out after the conception?)
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Post by min on Sept 8, 2016 18:14:46 GMT
Well, you convinced me and I wanted to stick with Ned and Ashara.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 8, 2016 18:15:21 GMT
An obvious answer is Aemon. But Aemon believed it was Rhaegar, and Rhaegar went along with that until he was persuaded otherwise...by the person who saw the comet? (the timing of the comet seems to be worked out after the conception?) It would seem so...except if it was ex post facto, how in the heck did they time it to Aegon's conception? Did Rhaegar keep a journal? "Dragonlog, 4th day after 10th moon turn, 281st year post-Conquest. Had relations with Elia, first time since birth of Rhaenys. Wanted to just go through the tradesman's entrance, but she insisted that I just 'do my duty already' and 'think of Jon Connington if that helps'. Hopefully she conceived so I get a break for 9 turns. --Postscript, 15th day of 11th turn. Comet seen over King's Landing night of prior entry, and Elia has a dragon in the fire! YES! Off to Vulture's Roost for long holiday. Arthur and the boys are coming with, should be quite the party. " Facetiousness aside, IMO, the only way that these two events could be tied together is if Rhaegar had reason to remember the specific day of Aegon's conception - like it stood out for some reason, and not just the comet. A ritual, perhaps?
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Post by Maester Flagons on Sept 8, 2016 18:36:05 GMT
But Aemon believed it was Rhaegar, and Rhaegar went along with that until he was persuaded otherwise...by the person who saw the comet? Forgot that quote was from Aemon. I'm thinking that the comet was spotted and noted by a maester(s). A ritual could be the ticket too. Still, I think the gohh has something to do with it. She was Jenny's friend and she supposedly gave the prophecy about the tptwp coming from a ceartain Targ line. If Rhaegar is attempting to fulfill this prophecy through his offspring then there are many possibilities.
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Post by min on Sept 8, 2016 20:11:17 GMT
Forgot that quote was from Aemon. I'm thinking that the comet was spotted and noted by a maester(s). A ritual could be the ticket too. Still, I think the gohh has something to do with it. She was Jenny's friend and she supposedly gave the prophecy about the tptwp coming from a ceartain Targ line. If Rhaegar is attempting to fulfill this prophecy through his offspring then there are many possibilities. There is a problem with trying to make prophecies happen. Just ask Melisandre.
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Post by ac on Sept 8, 2016 22:55:43 GMT
One of the interesting things about prophecies is that they are received as a visual, often without context. So just because the vision made it look like the child was born from specific parents that is not necessarily the case.
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Post by jnr on Sept 9, 2016 1:33:16 GMT
Does the PtwP have to be a true/full Targaryen? Was the original in prophecy? Melisandre apparently didn't think so. Aemon says the original prophecy translated to "dragon" - is that correct? Well, there's no certainty to be found on this, at least not for me. Snowfyre and I have gone back and forth about this one numerous times. Based on this, it appears likely to me, and I think also Snowfyre, that the relevant prophetic language is something along the lines of " the dragon prince that was promised" or possibly even just " the dragon that was promised." And this is why dragons changing sex would be relevant to Dany possibly being the PtwP. If so, such language would certainly attract the attention of Targs, I'd think. More, we have of course the Ghost of High Heart's (we think...) prediction that the PtwP was supposed to have emerged from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Rhaegar would have known this, and would probably have seen a substitute as ruling out a PtwP candidate since that baby would only emerge from the line of Elia and Stunt Cock. It would seem so...except if it was ex post facto, how in the heck did they time it to Aegon's conception? Did Rhaegar keep a journal? I wouldn't be surprised if it was as simple as 1) Rhaegar rarely had sex with Elia (no more than duty and Westeros required) 2) He happened to notice the comet in the sky on one of the rare occasions when he did 3) This was easy to remember later, exactly because both events were rare Later, when Elia turned up pregnant and eventually bore a boy, he was persuaded by the coincidence that Aegon was the PtwP. And he told this to Aemon in correspondence. Rhaegar may have been more partial to the "butt end of a sword" Which gives totally new meaning to
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Post by jnr on Sept 9, 2016 1:53:29 GMT
Later, when Elia turned up pregnant and eventually bore a boy, he was persuaded by the coincidence that Aegon was the PtwP. And he told this to Aemon in correspondence. BTW... this correspondence from Rhaegar to Aemon that I'm describing would be tied to Aegon's birth (as the first time Rhaegar could know the baby was a boy, which he thought was essential to the PtwP prophecy because he hadn't had Aemon's revelation about dragons changing sex). Since Aegon was according to SSM born about the time the Rebellion began, this correspondence would have been sent to Aemon around the time (I would think after the time) that he had kidnapped Lyanna. So here, in a nutshell, is Rhaegar writing Aemon about the PtwP being his newborn son Aegon... from Dragonstone... about the same time when (per RLJ) he's supposed to be kidnapping Lyanna in order to create Jon as the PtwP. Huh. Curiouser and curiouser...
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 9, 2016 15:20:43 GMT
Does the PtwP have to be a true/full Targaryen? Was the original in prophecy? Melisandre apparently didn't think so. Aemon says the original prophecy translated to "dragon" - is that correct? Well, there's no certainty to be found on this, at least not for me. Snowfyre and I have gone back and forth about this one numerous times. Based on this, it appears likely to me, and I think also Snowfyre, that the relevant prophetic language is something along the lines of " the dragon prince that was promised" or possibly even just " the dragon that was promised." And this is why dragons changing sex would be relevant to Dany possibly being the PtwP. If so, such language would certainly attract the attention of Targs, I'd think. More, we have of course the Ghost of High Heart's (we think...) prediction that the PtwP was supposed to have emerged from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Rhaegar would have known this, and would probably have seen a substitute as ruling out a PtwP candidate since that baby would only emerge from the line of Elia and Stunt Cock. It would seem so...except if it was ex post facto, how in the heck did they time it to Aegon's conception? Did Rhaegar keep a journal? I wouldn't be surprised if it was as simple as 1) Rhaegar rarely had sex with Elia (no more than duty and Westeros required) 2) He happened to notice the comet in the sky on one of the rare occasions when he did 3) This was easy to remember later, exactly because both events were rare Later, when Elia turned up pregnant and eventually bore a boy, he was persuaded by the coincidence that Aegon was the PtwP. And he told this to Aemon in correspondence. Rhaegar may have been more partial to the "butt end of a sword" Which gives totally new meaning to I've never been convinced of the dragon = Prince argument. The Targaryens may have adopted TPTWP prophecy but it doesn't mean that this was a Valyrian one. If I had to hazard a guess, it's probably a Rhoynish prophecy.
Most messiah prophecies are created by cultures who feel beleaguered and oppressed. I find it unlikely that the Valyrian Empire in the height of their power would have had a culturally spread message of the coming of a future messiah. And then I don't think it would be labeled as a Prince. They Rhoynes however styled their head sovereign as a Prince, and they were a culture that was very much oppressed. Because of the close nature of the Rhoynes and the Valyrians, the Valyrians probably would have been aware of their prophecy.
TPTWP apparently was first linked to House Targaryen during the reign of Aegon V. At this point in time House Targaryen had fairly recently married into House Martell, and Aegon V would have had a Dornish (and Rhoynish) grandmother. It would just be like these snooty Targaryens to not only steal the Dornish culture but also try and coopt their messiah into their House.
(Now if my theory about Aerys being the father of Oberyn and Elia is true, I wonder if at least half of the prophecy could have been partly fulfilled through Oberyn, or perhaps any of Elia's children as being from at least the line of Aerys). Any of Elia's children could be considered a Prince from both the Targaryen side and her Dornish side as well...
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Post by jnr on Sept 10, 2016 15:42:09 GMT
The Targaryens may have adopted TPTWP prophecy but it doesn't mean that this was a Valyrian one. If I had to hazard a guess, it's probably a Rhoynish prophecy. I didn't say it was a Valyrian prophecy and in fact, don't think the source it matters. Anyone, anywhere on the planet, could have made a prophecy on any subject, and rendered the concept of a character within that prophecy as "dragon prince." And that reference would still be quite interesting to a Targaryen. Most messiah prophecies are created by cultures who feel beleaguered and oppressed. Since we don't have the prophecy, we don't know it's a messiah prophecy. We don't know what the PtwP is said to do. We have references to the signs of the PtwP's emergence in the world (salt and smoke). Aemon also implies the PtwP is connected in some way to the "war for the dawn," but how, he doesn't specify. There does however certainly seem to be some powerful association in the prophecy's text between the concept of a dragon and the concept of the prince. Otherwise, what Aemon said (quoting Barth about dragons being able to change sex) has no logical connection to Aemon's firm belief that Dany is the PtwP despite being female. If there is no dragon-prince connection in the prophetic text, then the Barth remark is a complete non sequitur. Dragons certainly factor into the text somehow. TPTWP apparently was first linked to House Targaryen during the reign of Aegon V. Are you talking about the Ghost's claim that the PtwP would emerge from the line of Aerys and Rhaella? It seems very likely to me that the Targs had already heard of and were very interested in this prophecy. Otherwise, it would just be a woods witch wittering away about some prophecy they'd never heard of or didn't care about... which certainly doesn't seem to have been the case. They'd heard of it, they cared deeply about it, and the remarks of a grotesque woods witch had deep significance to them. So to me, this is not likely the first association of the prophecy with Targs, but a fine tuning of it. They saw what the Ghost said as notifying them that of all possible future branches of the Targ family, the prince would emerge from a specific one. That's the exact reason that branch was created, in fact: None of this, of course, concerns the original source of the prophecy -- just the terms in which it was expressed before it was translated (incorrectly, in Aemon's opinion). It could have come from anywhere, including Rhoyne, Ghis, Asshai, or anywhere else, as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 10, 2016 18:05:11 GMT
I've never been convinced of the dragon = Prince argument. The Targaryens may have adopted TPTWP prophecy but it doesn't mean that this was a Valyrian one. If I had to hazard a guess, it's probably a Rhoynish prophecy.
Most messiah prophecies are created by cultures who feel beleaguered and oppressed. I find it unlikely that the Valyrian Empire in the height of their power would have had a culturally spread message of the coming of a future messiah. And then I don't think it would be labeled as a Prince. They Rhoynes however styled their head sovereign as a Prince, and they were a culture that was very much oppressed. Because of the close nature of the Rhoynes and the Valyrians, the Valyrians probably would have been aware of their prophecy.
TPTWP apparently was first linked to House Targaryen during the reign of Aegon V. At this point in time House Targaryen had fairly recently married into House Martell, and Aegon V would have had a Dornish (and Rhoynish) grandmother. It would just be like these snooty Targaryens to not only steal the Dornish culture but also try and coopt their messiah into their House.
(Now if my theory about Aerys being the father of Oberyn and Elia is true, I wonder if at least half of the prophecy could have been partly fulfilled through Oberyn, or perhaps any of Elia's children as being from at least the line of Aerys). Any of Elia's children could be considered a Prince from both the Targaryen side and her Dornish side as well... Sorry FFR, I missed this post and said something very similar to you on the Salt and Smoke thread. I like the idea of the prophecy being Rhoynish, or even Valyrian, but not coming from the ruling 40, but rather their slaves. An oppressor could take their prophecy and change it to fit themselves in order to take it away from the oppressed though, so I wouldn't discount it coming to the Targ's in that fashion. As I said on the other thread, maybe the Targs adopted and adapted the prophecy after the fall of Valyria, since they were the only family with dragons left. So in a way, they are now the beleaguered, having lost everything. Yet hope remains because one family still has dragons, and the original gets twisted from there. Long before Aegon V's time, but unnoticed until some especially scholarly Targs find it and start trying to figure out who it is. Or as you say it could've been the wood's witch that sparked their interest in this prophecy. Either way they're dealing with it now. Additionally, we don't know how many other prophets have influence the prophecy the Targs have. It might have been the same seer, Daenys, that foresaw the Doom, might've also foreseen a dragonrider saving the world. That might account for why they equate dragon with prince. But the bottom line is that we don't know who or what the original prophecy said because Martin has kept it ambiguous. Surprise, surprise. The only thing I think we do know is that more than one culture has the same signs and portents to signify the coming of the saviour. And that's the interesting part.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 11, 2016 13:02:04 GMT
The Targaryens may have adopted TPTWP prophecy but it doesn't mean that this was a Valyrian one. If I had to hazard a guess, it's probably a Rhoynish prophecy. I didn't say it was a Valyrian prophecy and in fact, don't think the source it matters. Anyone, anywhere on the planet, could have made a prophecy on any subject, and rendered the concept of a character within that prophecy as "dragon prince." And that reference would still be quite interesting to a Targaryen. Most messiah prophecies are created by cultures who feel beleaguered and oppressed. Since we don't have the prophecy, we don't know it's a messiah prophecy. We don't know what the PtwP is said to do. We have references to the signs of the PtwP's emergence in the world (salt and smoke). Aemon also implies the PtwP is connected in some way to the "war for the dawn," but how, he doesn't specify. There does however certainly seem to be some powerful association in the prophecy's text between the concept of a dragon and the concept of the prince. Otherwise, what Aemon said (quoting Barth about dragons being able to change sex) has no logical connection to Aemon's firm belief that Dany is the PtwP despite being female. If there is no dragon-prince connection in the prophetic text, then the Barth remark is a complete non sequitur. Dragons certainly factor into the text somehow. TPTWP apparently was first linked to House Targaryen during the reign of Aegon V. Are you talking about the Ghost's claim that the PtwP would emerge from the line of Aerys and Rhaella? It seems very likely to me that the Targs had already heard of and were very interested in this prophecy. Otherwise, it would just be a woods witch wittering away about some prophecy they'd never heard of or didn't care about... which certainly doesn't seem to have been the case. They'd heard of it, they cared deeply about it, and the remarks of a grotesque woods witch had deep significance to them. So to me, this is not likely the first association of the prophecy with Targs, but a fine tuning of it. They saw what the Ghost said as notifying them that of all possible future branches of the Targ family, the prince would emerge from a specific one. That's the exact reason that branch was created, in fact: None of this, of course, concerns the original source of the prophecy -- just the terms in which it was expressed before it was translated (incorrectly, in Aemon's opinion). It could have come from anywhere, including Rhoyne, Ghis, Asshai, or anywhere else, as far as I'm concerned. We already know that Aemon is conflating TPTWP prophecy with the AA is reborn in salt and smoke prophecy. He believed that Rhaegar was TPTWP, and he thought being reborn in smoke and salt referenced the smoke of Summerhall and the tears of everybody's grief. I think he may also be conflating TPTWP prophecy with the idea of The Dragon (specifically The Dragon has three heads). I think it is possible that these are two seperate ideas/prophecies from two different cultures that Aemon and Rhaegar believed became intertwined through House Targaryen. It can't be forgotten how Dornish House Targaryen was when Aemon and Aegon V grew up there. Their paternal grandmother was a Princess of Dorne and their mother was a Dayne. In a Sworn Sword, it turns out that one of the problems that many in Westeros had with King Daeron, was how Dornish King's Landing was becoming. So it wouldn't be a big stretch to think of a Dornish belief, that of a foretold Prince that was Promised, would have been instilled into Aegon V and Aemon. Now let's say that House Targaryen also had another belief. A belief in The Dragon, a belief that may have existed for at least a thousand years dating back to the days of old Valyria. Now it seems unlikely that this would merely be the idea of a dragon rider, since dragon riders existed aplenty back in Valyria's heyday. Aemon gives us a hint perhaps when he says that the Sphinx is the riddle not the riddler. I think what he is referring to is the Valyrian Sphinx. It has the body of a dragon but the head of a human. We have Aerion Targaryen who drank wildfire believing he would be reborn as a dragon. We have Aerys Targaryen who was planning on burning down himself and King's Landing believing he would be reborn as a dragon. I think The dragon has three heads, and the riddle of the Sphinx may be in reference to House Targaryen's obsession with putting their consciousness into the body of a dragon. So I think what we have is this very Targaryen, re Valyrian, belief of trying to in actuality become a dragon tying in with the Dornish, re Rhoynish, belief of a Prince that was Promised brought into House Targaryen through their Dornish marriages, who is supposed to appear at the time of the Battle for the Dawn.
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