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Post by min on Nov 17, 2016 23:35:18 GMT
Some interesting passages I came across about the crown of thorns and the crown of blue roses. A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark. A Game of Thrones - Tyrion VIII A warhorn sounded in the far distance, a deep mournful note that chilled the soul. The clansmen climbed onto their scrawny mountain horses, shouting curses and rude jokes. Several appeared to be drunk. The rising sun was burning off the drifting tendrils of fog as Tyrion led them off. What grass the horses had left was heavy with dew, as if some passing god had scattered a bag of diamonds over the earth. The mountain men fell in behind him, each clan arrayed behind its own leaders. In the dawn light, the army of Lord Tywin Lannister unfolded like an iron rose, thorns gleaming.
Question: "What is the meaning and significance of the crown of thorns?" Answer: After Jesus’ sham trials and subsequent flogging, and before He was crucified, the Roman soldiers “twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on His head. They put a staff in His right hand and knelt in front of Him and mocked Him. ‘Hail, king of the Jews!’ they said” (Matthew 27:29; see also John 19:2-5). While a crown of thorns would be exceedingly painful, the crown of thorns was more about mockery than it was about pain. Here was the “King of the Jews” being beaten, spit upon, and insulted by presumably low-level Roman soldiers. The crown of thorns was the finalizing of their mockery, taking a symbol of royalty and majesty, a crown, and turning it into something painful and degrading.For Christians, the crown of thorns is a reminder of two things: (1) Jesus was, and is, indeed a king. One day, the entire universe will bow to Jesus as the “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:16). What the Roman soldiers meant as a mockery, was in fact a picture of Christ’s two roles, first of suffering servant (Isaiah 53), and second of conquering Messiah-King (Revelation 19). (2) Jesus was willing to endure the pain, the insults, and the shame, all on our account. The crown of thorns, and the suffering that went with it, are long gone, and Jesus has now received the crown of which He is worthy. “But we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone” (Hebrews 2:9, emphasis added). There is further symbolism embodied in the crown of thorns. When Adam and Eve sinned, bringing evil and a curse upon the world, part of the curse upon humanity was “…cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you…” (Genesis 3:17-18, emphasis added). The Roman soldiers unknowingly took an object of the curse and fashioned it into a crown for the one who would deliver us from that curse. “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree’” (Galatians 3:13). Christ, in His perfect atoning sacrifice, has delivered us from the curse of sin, of which a thorn is a symbol. While intended to be a mockery, the crown of thorns was, in fact, an excellent symbol of who Jesus is and what He came to accomplish. gotquestions.org/crown-of-thorns.html
A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX "Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it … as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is."
"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.
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Post by min on Nov 18, 2016 0:04:17 GMT
Here's another very suggestive bit:
A Game of Thrones - Jon VII
Jon remained standing. "It's my father, isn't it?"
The Old Bear tapped the letter with a finger. "Your father and the king," he rumbled. "I won't lie to you, it's grievous news. I never thought to see another king, not at my age, with Robert half my years and strong as a bull." He took a gulp of wine. "They say the king loved to hunt. The things we love destroy us every time, lad. Remember that. My son loved that young wife of his. Vain woman. If not for her, he would never have thought to sell those poachers."
Jon could scarcely follow what he was saying. "My lord, I don't understand. What's happened to my father?"
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 18, 2016 0:37:31 GMT
The symbolism of the crown of thorns placed in Lyanna 's lap effectively makes her Jesus. Jesus was sacrificed by the Romans, but he was betrayed by the Jews...people that were his own kind. We could try to interpret this literally by wondering if someone she knew as "her own kind" betrayed her and gave her over to the "Romans"...IMO the Lannisters, and sacrificed.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Nov 18, 2016 0:43:51 GMT
I think there is a bit of Christian symbolism there and i'm more inclined to look at the crown of thorns as it was used then;as a mockery of Christ as a King. I believed Rhaegar did the same with Lyanna but instead of King sub that with "Lady."
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Nov 18, 2016 0:50:03 GMT
I will put another suggestive bit.Nice one Min with Mormon's news to Jon.
So this is Ned musings after he discovered Gendry and how he was no closer to discovering why Jon Arryn was killed.The phrasing is intriguing especially in light of what occured with Arya 3 chapters later.
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Post by min on Nov 18, 2016 4:01:09 GMT
Here's one that might either suggest something about Longclaw or about Jon:
A Storm of Swords - Jon II
And even more telling, only one in a hundred wildlings was mounted. The Old Bear will go through them like an axe through porridge. And when that happened, Mance must give chase with his center, to try and blunt the threat. If he should fall in the fight that must follow, the Wall would be safe for another hundred years, Jon judged. And if not . . .
He flexed the burned fingers of his sword hand. Longclaw was slung to his saddle, the carved stone wolf's-head pommel and soft leather grip of the great bastard sword within easy reach.
It is unknown whether Bloodraven was allowed to take the sword with him when he was sent to the Night's Watch. The sword's current whereabouts have as yet not been revealed.
A Clash of Kings - Jon III
"Very good. See that my horse is saddled and ready. I mean for us to ride within the hour. Have you eaten? Craster serves plain fare, but filling."
I will not eat Craster's food, he decided suddenly. "I broke my fast with the men, my lord." Jon shooed the raven off Longclaw. The bird hopped back to Mormont's shoulder, where it promptly shat. "You might have done that on Snow instead of saving it for me," the Old Bear grumbled. The raven quorked.
A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII
The raven flapped down and landed on the table, strutting toward the sword, head cocked curiously. Jon hesitated. He had no inkling what this meant. "My lord?"
"The fire melted the silver off the pommel and burnt the crossguard and grip. Well, dry leather and old wood, what could you expect? The blade, now … you'd need a fire a hundred times as hot to harm the blade." Mormont shoved the scabbard across the rough oak planks. "I had the rest made anew. Take it."
"Take it," echoed his raven, preening. "Take it, take it."
A Clash of Kings - Jon II
Jon dismounted. Slung across his back in a black leather shoulder sheath was Longclaw, the hand-and-a-half bastard blade the Old Bear had given him for saving his life. A bastard sword for a bastard, the men joked. The hilt had been fashioned new for him, adorned with a wolf's-head pommel in pale stone, but the blade itself was Valyrian steel, old and light and deadly sharp.
Is it possible that Longclaw is actually Dark Sister? That Mormont's story about his ancestral blade isn't true. Jon wonders why Mormont would not have left it on Bear Island to pass on to his or Maege's ancestors. One of the descriptions of Dark Sister is that "she had a thirst for blood."
Jon's 'dark sister' Arya has a thirst for blood given her kill list and she refers to herself as having long claws:
A Storm of Swords - Arya XI
The Frey riders were struggling through the mud and reeds, but some of them had seen the wayn. She watched as three riders left the main column, pounding through the shallows. Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know.
Clegane cut Stranger loose with a single slash of his sword and leapt onto his back. The courser knew what was wanted of him. He pricked up his ears and wheeled toward the charging destriers. In a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws. And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours. Arya had prayed a hundred hundred times for the Hound to die, but now . . . there was a rock in her hand, slimy with mud, and she didn't even remember picking it up. Who do I throw it at?
So a great bastard sword for a great bastard? Ironically, it's Stannis Baratheon who offers to legitimize Jon.
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Post by min on Nov 18, 2016 4:56:57 GMT
This is a convo that I was taking part at W. Having to do with the recurring theme of acorns and oaks. I've come to the conclusion that what is important about the Starks and the first men is their connection to Garth Greenhands; that there is another magic force that was common to the first men and the cotf in the dawn age. There is not only elemental magic of ice and fire; but also green magic. I think it's the green bloodline that is important to Starks and not the mixture of ice and fire bloodline that so many expect. I think the fire bloodline is specific to Dany and the signals we are getting that she is Azor Ahai. asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/144236-arya-may-have-planted-a-weirwood/ |
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 18, 2016 13:04:00 GMT
I'm not opposed to Robert being Jon's father, but I do think he was a more deceptive character than has been so far revealed. I believe he worked with the Lannister's in secret to abduct Lyanna, and this will be a huge reveal in the next book and a heartbreaking betrayal of his supposed "brotherly" relationship with Ned. He wasn't the schemer, but he was a willing participant, because he wanted to be king and he knew he needed Tywin's help and support to get there. Lyanna was to be his queen, so the Jesus symbolism is quite complete with her being betrayed by someone of her own kind...Robert was Judas.
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Post by min on Nov 18, 2016 19:29:22 GMT
Seems that Longclaw can't be Dark Sister renamed since Jorah confirms the Longclaw is their ancestral blade. However, Jon referring to it as a great bastard sword, along with Stannis offering to legitimize Jon at a later point; does suggest that Jon is Robert's bastard. Even if Dark Sister was a Blackfyre blade; it still wouldn't make connection to Rhaegar. But it would reinforce the idea that Robert's Rebellion was the greatest threat to the Targaryens since the Blackfyre Rebellion. So unless Lyanna Mormont shows up with a Valyrian steel blade; a connection can't be made between Dark Sister and Long Claw.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 18, 2016 23:20:02 GMT
Seems that Longclaw can't be Dark Sister renamed since Jorah confirms the Longclaw is their ancestral blade. However, Jon referring to it as a great bastard sword, along with Stannis offering to legitimize Jon at a later point; does suggest that Jon is Robert's bastard. Even if Dark Sister was a Blackfyre blade; it still wouldn't make connection to Rhaegar. But it would reinforce the idea that Robert's Rebellion was the greatest threat to the Targaryens since the Blackfyre Rebellion. So unless Lyanna Mormont shows up with a Valyrian steel blade; a connection can't be made between Dark Sister and Long Claw. I was wondering why you were trying to draw a connection... On a separate but related note, if someone were working on a connection between Jon and the Mormonts, then an argument might be made that Jeor or Jorah is his true father. Or its just another misdirection...one among many. Added with that is the tantalizing Lyanna Mormont name. And then there's Dany's memories of the rough log beams with animal carvings and her descriptive thoughts about Wilhem Darry sounding like Jeor. And the sold "slaves/poachers". Another connection is an inversion. The Runaway Bride chapter is about Asha and Qarl the Maid in bed after she wed "that old guy" who's name I cannot recall at the moment. But if there's an inversion to be drawn you might entertain the idea that Asha's inversion is Rhaella Targaryen, and smooth cheeked Qarl the Maid's inversion would be hairy Jeor or Jorah. Maybe the Mormonts helped Rhaella smuggle Dany and Viserys away via Bear Island disguised as poachers sold as slaves? Then Rhaella could be Septa Lemore...or Ashara. But how does the Mormont ancestral sword tie in Jon? It'd be quite a leap to find a way to make Jorah Jon's father, but could it be that Jorah was the one to dishonor Ashara? So when Ashara turned to Ned for help after being dishonored she was brought to Bear Island, but for this to work Ashara would have to be both Jon and Dany's mother...Irish twins! We really should have a cracked pot emoji....  |
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Post by jnr on Nov 19, 2016 0:29:59 GMT
I believed Rhaegar did the same with Lyanna but instead of King sub that with "Lady." It's a perfectly valid take. I often raise my eyebrows at the complete conviction people in another place feel when they say things like "Rhaegar honored Lyanna with the crown, so therefore he wouldn't have put a bastard in her belly." Assumes facts not in evidence.  Also, even if you buy the honor thing, there's an obvious alternate take of the above. Not "Rhaegar married Lyanna," but "Rhaegar didn't impregnate Lyanna." |
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Post by min on Nov 19, 2016 2:06:10 GMT
I was wondering why you were trying to draw a connection... It's possible that Mormont knows that Jon is Robert's bastard. Some of his passages are very suggestive. But this is what we are dealing with 'suggestion' and inference. It's still a question in my mind whether Benjen knows Jon's lineage. I would guess that Bloodraven knows. But here's something on another topic. You know I've been amusing myself with the notion that Robert Strong will turn out to be the vader monster in the story. I think it's possible that Cersei sent Robert's skull to Prince Doran in place of Gregor's.... after Qyburn removed his face without telling her. A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV She took Qyburn by the arm as they made their way down the stairs. "Have you attended to that little task I set you?" "I have, Your Grace. I am sorry that it took so long. Such a large head. It took the beetles many hours to clean the flesh. By way of pardon, I have lined a box of ebony and silver with felt, to make a fitting presentation for the skull." I haven't looked for the passage yet describing the recieving of the skull in a box. But I think it's the same. Then this: A Dance with Dragons - Cersei I "And who would you have him name?" She did not have a ready answer. My champion will need a new name as well as a new face. "Qyburn will know. Trust him in this. You and I have had our differences, Uncle, but for the blood we share and the love you bore my father, for Tommen's sake and the sake of his poor maimed sister, do as I ask you. Go to Lord Qyburn on my behalf, bring him a white cloak, and tell him that the time has come." Of course Cersei knows Robert Strong is Gregor since he's 8 feet tall and that Qyburn can perform "wonders and horrors". But undead Gregor can't be revealed since she has sent another skull to Doran Martell in it's place. Most likely Robert Baratheon's....  |
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Post by min on Nov 19, 2016 2:19:37 GMT
Seems that Longclaw can't be Dark Sister renamed since Jorah confirms the Longclaw is their ancestral blade. However, Jon referring to it as a great bastard sword, along with Stannis offering to legitimize Jon at a later point; does suggest that Jon is Robert's bastard. Even if Dark Sister was a Blackfyre blade; it still wouldn't make connection to Rhaegar. But it would reinforce the idea that Robert's Rebellion was the greatest threat to the Targaryens since the Blackfyre Rebellion. So unless Lyanna Mormont shows up with a Valyrian steel blade; a connection can't be made between Dark Sister and Long Claw. I was wondering why you were trying to draw a connection... On a separate but related note, if someone were working on a connection between Jon and the Mormonts, then an argument might be made that Jeor or Jorah is his true father. Or its just another misdirection...one among many. Added with that is the tantalizing Lyanna Mormont name. And then there's Dany's memories of the rough log beams with animal carvings and her descriptive thoughts about Wilhem Darry sounding like Jeor. And the sold "slaves/poachers". Another connection is an inversion. The Runaway Bride chapter is about Asha and Qarl the Maid in bed after she wed "that old guy" who's name I cannot recall at the moment. But if there's an inversion to be drawn you might entertain the idea that Asha's inversion is Rhaella Targaryen, and smooth cheeked Qarl the Maid's inversion would be hairy Jeor or Jorah. Maybe the Mormonts helped Rhaella smuggle Dany and Viserys away via Bear Island disguised as poachers sold as slaves? Then Rhaella could be Septa Lemore...or Ashara. But how does the Mormont ancestral sword tie in Jon? It'd be quite a leap to find a way to make Jorah Jon's father, but could it be that Jorah was the one to dishonor Ashara? So when Ashara turned to Ned for help after being dishonored she was brought to Bear Island, but for this to work Ashara would have to be both Jon and Dany's mother...Irish twins! We really should have a cracked pot emoji.... That's an interesting idea. It might explain why Joer is at the Wall. He may or may not have known about Dany or Jorah's part in it, only to find out later. But I'm not making a connection to Mormont being Jon's natural father. Only to the use of "great bastard" by Jon to describe Longclaw. A bastard sword for a bastard as he says. But we also know that Stannis will offer to legitimize Jon in the Stark line of succession. That would make Jon a great bastard and ironically by his uncle; if Jon is Robert's son. That's the connection I'm making. |
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Post by min on Nov 19, 2016 2:24:33 GMT
Here's the box:
A Dance with Dragons - The Watcher
Areo Hotah ran his hand along the smooth shaft of his longaxe, his ash-and-iron wife, all the while watching. He watched the white knight, Ser Balon Swann, and the others who had come with him. He watched the Sand Snakes, each at a different table. He watched the lords and ladies, the serving men, the old blind seneschal, and the young maester Myles, with his silky beard and servile smile. Standing half in light and half in shadow, he saw all of them. Serve. Protect. Obey. That was his task.
All the rest had eyes only for the chest. It was carved of ebony, with silver clasps and hinges. A fine-looking box, no doubt, but many of those assembled here in the Old Palace of Sunspear might soon be dead, depending on what was in that chest.
He allowed himself a brief glance at the chest. The skull rested on a bed of black felt, grinning. All skulls grinned, but this one seemed happier than most. And bigger. The captain of guards had never seen a larger skull. Its brow shelf was thick and heavy, its jaw massive. The bone shone in the candlelight, white as Ser Balon's cloak. "Place it on the pedestal," the prince commanded. He had tears glistening in his eyes.
...looking for descriptions of Clegan'es face...
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 19, 2016 4:08:12 GMT
I was wondering why you were trying to draw a connection... It's possible that Mormont knows that Jon is Robert's bastard. Some of his passages are very suggestive. But this is what we are dealing with 'suggestion' and inference. It's still a question in my mind whether Benjen knows Jon's lineage. I would guess that Bloodraven knows. But here's something on another topic. You know I've been amusing myself with the notion that Robert Strong will turn out to be the vader monster in the story. I think it's possible that Cersei sent Robert's skull to Prince Doran in place of Gregor's.... after Qyburn removed his face without telling her. A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV She took Qyburn by the arm as they made their way down the stairs. "Have you attended to that little task I set you?" "I have, Your Grace. I am sorry that it took so long. Such a large head. It took the beetles many hours to clean the flesh. By way of pardon, I have lined a box of ebony and silver with felt, to make a fitting presentation for the skull." I haven't looked for the passage yet describing the recieving of the skull in a box. But I think it's the same. Then this: A Dance with Dragons - Cersei I "And who would you have him name?" She did not have a ready answer. My champion will need a new name as well as a new face. "Qyburn will know. Trust him in this. You and I have had our differences, Uncle, but for the blood we share and the love you bore my father, for Tommen's sake and the sake of his poor maimed sister, do as I ask you. Go to Lord Qyburn on my behalf, bring him a white cloak, and tell him that the time has come." Of course Cersei knows Robert Strong is Gregor since he's 8 feet tall and that Qyburn can perform "wonders and horrors". But undead Gregor can't be revealed since she has sent another skull to Doran Martell in it's place. Most likely Robert Baratheon's.... That would be a wonderfully gruesome reveal, and so very Cersei. The description that the skull looked happy seems to hint to Robert. There's also Jaime's descriptions of Robert thinking he was the Mountain of his youth. Was Robert so large as to have a massive skull? |
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