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Post by min on Nov 29, 2016 19:24:37 GMT
It would mean that Lady Barbrey became pregnant just before Brandon went off to marry Catelyn and Cat was pregnant before Brandon went to Kingslanding. Not sure that this is possible, unless you're suggesting that Cat miscarried the baby before marrying Ned. A large amount of time passed between Brandon's departure (and later death) and Ned & Cat's wedding....probably 9 months to a year. Cat got pregnant with Robb on her wedding night, and he was born near the end of 283 - that's corroborated several times in the text. If Brandon was Robb's father, Cat would have been either near term of pregnancy when she married Ned, or Robb would already be born. Sorry to keep asking about it. I'm horrible with the timelines and start chasing my tail around in circles. So no to: - Barbrey and Brandon - Catelyn and Brandon - Ned and Lyanna - Ned and Ashara If there is any parallel to Gilly and Lyanna and incest; then possibly Brandon and Lyanna.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 29, 2016 19:41:24 GMT
If there is any probability that Ned fathered a child I think Ashara as mother is more likely. After revisiting how both Arya and Sansa reflect Lyanna and how her fate was intertwined with Ashara, I think it more likely Ashara was the Fisherman's Daughter/Wylla.
I think Lyanna was abducted by Maester Walys, Jaime, Merrett Frey, Sumner Crakehall, Barristan Selmy, and maybe even Robert Baratheon. She was taken west towards the Westerlands. Eventually Tywin's men do take her to the tower of joy to complete the fraud that "Rhaegar" kidnapped her.
Ashara then is the one that is dishonored, maybe even raped by Aerys, and makes her way to Ned in the Eyrie for help. He takes her to White Harbor while he calls his banners. Maybe Jorah Mormont ends up taking her back to Bear Island?
I don't know how Jon gets worked in here though. I do like your Brandon and Lady Barbery bastard tale. It would explain why she's so angry at Ned, and Jon would have more of the north in him with two northern parents. The only hiccup is his age. He should be older than Robb by quite a bit.
There still could be some incest between Ned and Lyanna, and she could have given birth to the child that ends up as the Pisswater Prince.
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Post by min on Nov 29, 2016 21:02:59 GMT
If there is any probability that Ned fathered a child I think Ashara as mother is more likely. After revisiting how both Arya and Sansa reflect Lyanna and how her fate was intertwined with Ashara, I think it more likely Ashara was the Fisherman's Daughter/Wylla. I think Lyanna was abducted by Maester Walys, Jaime, Merrett Frey, Sumner Crakehall, Barristan Selmy, and maybe even Robert Baratheon. She was taken west towards the Westerlands. Eventually Tywin's men do take her to the tower of joy to complete the fraud that "Rhaegar" kidnapped her. Ashara then is the one that is dishonored, maybe even raped by Aerys, and makes her way to Ned in the Eyrie for help. He takes her to White Harbor while he calls his banners. Maybe Jorah Mormont ends up taking her back to Bear Island? I don't know how Jon gets worked in here though. I do like your Brandon and Lady Barbery bastard tale. It would explain why she's so angry at Ned, and Jon would have more of the north in him with two northern parents. The only hiccup is his age. He should be older than Robb by quite a bit. There still could be some incest between Ned and Lyanna, and she could have given birth to the child that ends up as the Pisswater Prince. Unless love can't change a man's nature is an oblique reference to Brandon and he continued his liason with Lady Barbrey whenever he was in the South after his betrothal; I can't see Jon as their son based on timelines. The problem with Ned is that he basically disqualifies himself in this quote: In Ned's private thoughts; he doesn't think of Jon as a child of his body. Another way to look at this dream of Ned's is that its the statue of Lyanna that is weeping blood; not unlike images of the virgin Mary say. A weeping statue is a statue which has been claimed to be shedding tears or weeping by supernatural means. Statues weeping tears of a substance which appears to be blood, oil, and scented liquids have all been reported. Other claimed phenomena are sometimes associated with weeping statues such as miraculous healing, the formation of figures in the tear lines, and the scent of roses. These events are generally reported by some Christians, and initially attract some pilgrims, but are in most cases disallowed by the upper levels of the Church or proven as hoaxes. wikipedia The word hoax stands out - a trick to decieve someone into believing something that is untrue is true. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_statueThe immaculate conception doesn't imply that Mary conceived by miraculous methods but that she was free of original sin. However, the Church holds that Mary was also sinless personally, "free from all sin, original or personal" - wikipedia
The virgin Mary is described as a being of surpassing holiness. Ned describes Lyanna: If Lyanna is without the taint of sin; then I think we're back to Robert + Lyanna = Jon
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 29, 2016 21:16:31 GMT
To me this is one of those instances in which George's Catholic is showing. Mary wept tears of blood for Jesus so in religious terms it's associated with martyrdom and extreme grief over a loss. More importantly though is the connection to vengeance and justice for one that was wronged.
Combine that with the crown of roses full of hidden thorns, and it's a powerful message.
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Post by min on Nov 29, 2016 21:52:33 GMT
What is the association between roses, garland of roses and rosaries?
Etymology From Latin rosarium, here in its sense as a garland of roses.
Fifteen rosary promises. A tradition held by the Order of Preachers (also known as Dominicans) holds that through Saint Dominic and Alan de Rupe, the Blessed Virgin Mary made fifteen specific promises to Christians who faithfully pray the rosary.
We're heavy into Christian territory now. LOL
I'm pretty certain that the virgin Mary wouldn't run off with Prince Rhaegar. She'd marry the man she was supposed to marry even if he got her pregnant beforehand.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 29, 2016 22:18:10 GMT
If there is any probability that Ned fathered a child I think Ashara as mother is more likely. After revisiting how both Arya and Sansa reflect Lyanna and how her fate was intertwined with Ashara, I think it more likely Ashara was the Fisherman's Daughter/Wylla. I think Lyanna was abducted by Maester Walys, Jaime, Merrett Frey, Sumner Crakehall, Barristan Selmy, and maybe even Robert Baratheon. She was taken west towards the Westerlands. Eventually Tywin's men do take her to the tower of joy to complete the fraud that "Rhaegar" kidnapped her. Ashara then is the one that is dishonored, maybe even raped by Aerys, and makes her way to Ned in the Eyrie for help. He takes her to White Harbor while he calls his banners. Maybe Jorah Mormont ends up taking her back to Bear Island? I don't know how Jon gets worked in here though. I do like your Brandon and Lady Barbery bastard tale. It would explain why she's so angry at Ned, and Jon would have more of the north in him with two northern parents. The only hiccup is his age. He should be older than Robb by quite a bit. There still could be some incest between Ned and Lyanna, and she could have given birth to the child that ends up as the Pisswater Prince. Unless love can't change a man's nature is an oblique reference to Brandon and he continued his liason with Lady Barbrey whenever he was in the South after his betrothal; I can't see Jon as their son based on timelines. The problem with Ned is that he basically disqualifies himself in this quote: In Ned's private thoughts; he doesn't think of Jon as a child of his body. Another way to look at this dream of Ned's is that its the statue of Lyanna that is weeping blood; not unlike images of the virgin Mary say. A weeping statue is a statue which has been claimed to be shedding tears or weeping by supernatural means. Statues weeping tears of a substance which appears to be blood, oil, and scented liquids have all been reported. Other claimed phenomena are sometimes associated with weeping statues such as miraculous healing, the formation of figures in the tear lines, and the scent of roses. These events are generally reported by some Christians, and initially attract some pilgrims, but are in most cases disallowed by the upper levels of the Church or proven as hoaxes. wikipedia The word hoax stands out - a trick to decieve someone into believing something that is untrue is true. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_statueThe immaculate conception doesn't imply that Mary conceived by miraculous methods but that she was free of original sin. However, the Church holds that Mary was also sinless personally, "free from all sin, original or personal" - wikipedia
The virgin Mary is described as a being of surpassing holiness. Ned describes Lyanna: If Lyanna is without the taint of sin; then I think we're back to Robert + Lyanna = Jon
I agree with SomePig that GRRM's Catholicism is showing with the use of blood, weeping blood, and the smell of roses. It is a hoax. Lyanna was never kidnapped by Rhaegar, but the stage was set to make it look real. Does Lyanna have to have had a child with her in the tower to complete the picture? I don't think Lyanna had a child, but a child could have been provided.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 29, 2016 22:21:20 GMT
What is the association between roses, garland of roses and rosaries? Etymology From Latin rosarium, here in its sense as a garland of roses. Fifteen rosary promises. A tradition held by the Order of Preachers (also known as Dominicans) holds that through Saint Dominic and Alan de Rupe, the Blessed Virgin Mary made fifteen specific promises to Christians who faithfully pray the rosary. We're heavy into Christian territory now. LOL I'm pretty certain that the virgin Mary wouldn't run off with Prince Rhaegar. She'd marry the man she was supposed to marry even if he got her pregnant beforehand. There is a certain "poetry" (for lack of a better word) to having Robert be the father of Lyanna's child if she had one. I've read the many posts that you and Wolfmaid wrote about this, but I don't think they were intimate prior to the kidnapping. I believe Robert was involved with the Lannisters and the kidnapping and he may have raped Lyanna just because she was supposed to be "his". If he has to give her up for Cersei and she ends up dead, he still wants to "have her".
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Post by min on Nov 29, 2016 23:31:31 GMT
What is the association between roses, garland of roses and rosaries? Etymology From Latin rosarium, here in its sense as a garland of roses. Fifteen rosary promises. A tradition held by the Order of Preachers (also known as Dominicans) holds that through Saint Dominic and Alan de Rupe, the Blessed Virgin Mary made fifteen specific promises to Christians who faithfully pray the rosary. We're heavy into Christian territory now. LOL I'm pretty certain that the virgin Mary wouldn't run off with Prince Rhaegar. She'd marry the man she was supposed to marry even if he got her pregnant beforehand. There is a certain "poetry" (for lack of a better word) to having Robert be the father of Lyanna's child if she had one. I've read the many posts that you and Wolfmaid wrote about this, but I don't think they were intimate prior to the kidnapping. I believe Robert was involved with the Lannisters and the kidnapping and he may have raped Lyanna just because she was supposed to be "his". If he has to give her up for Cersei and she ends up dead, he still wants to "have her". I don't know about Robert not having any opportunity to be with Lyanna within the timeline. What we do know is that Jon is Ned's blood; Jon looks like a Stark; Brandon and Ned are both ruled out. That leaves Lyanna as Jon's mother. If you think that Dany is Ashara's and Aery's that rules Ashara out as Jon's mom because there is only 6 months or so between Dany and Jon's birth. I think we can rule Rhaegar out. That leaves Arthur Dayne, Robert or someone flying round in a UFO. I don't think Lyanna was ever at the ToJ. I think it was just 7 against 3 as the final act of the war. I think Ned's dream images about it are stand-ins for the First Keep with it's lichyard below and door to the crypts are right there. The dream of the fight crosses over to the place where Lyanna, Brandon and Rickard are buried. His dreams are current dreams and they change in some aspect regarding Lyanna every time. They have the quality of a green dream or a foreshadowing dream to do with the godly vengeance that will be unleashed with the removal of Arthur Dayne and the birth of Jon and Dany; the storm of petals blue as the eyes of death. People expect that Jon will inherit the Dawn sword; but I think that Dany is heir to that sword and at some point it will be put into Jon's hands. Brienne may even fit in there somewhere as a knight worthy of the blade and all the symbolism around her as both the evening star and morning star. With the christian symbolism; we have Ned as god the father (jon dreams of a weirwood with Ned's face); Bran is the most christ-like; hung up on a tree or throne; and Jon the holy ghost.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 30, 2016 0:37:20 GMT
I didn't mean to imply that Robert didn't have opportunity to be with Lyanna, but keeping to Jon's age his conception would need to be early in the Rebellion and at least after Lyannas abduction.
There is a time period during the fighting when Robert, for some unknown and unexplained reason, returns to Storm's End.
I think the symbolism that you've uncovered about the weeping tears of blood and smelling roses is meant to be a clue that while Lyanna is found at the tower, things are not what they appear. It's fake. A setup to complete the fake kidnapping by Rhaegar story.
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Post by min on Nov 30, 2016 9:07:57 GMT
Running theme through Catholicism of immaculate conception, freedom from sin. " However, the Church holds that Mary was also sinless personally, "free from all sin, original or personal" - wikipedia" Lyanna the sad-eyed girl in a white dress, spattered with gore. Our Lady of Sorrows - one incarnation of the Blessed Mother - portrayed in Catholic imagery as a sad woman, bleeding from wounds to her heart which has been pierced by seven swords representing her seven sorrows. Honored with annual liturgical feast... Theon's dream of Lyanna in the white dress was in the setting of a feast. Wow, missed that completely. We also have the weeping woman statue at the Eyrie and the mother with child at House Mormont for more catholic imagery. So I wonder if Lyanna spent time at the Eyrie and at House Mormont. If Mary and Martha spent time together; perhaps they were both at Bear Island and took ship from there to Starfall where it is implied that Jon was nursed by Wylla. The broken weeping woman statue half buried in the ground at the Eyrie could imply that something happened between Robert and Lyanna there. Jon the Baptist did occur to me as a reference to Jon Snow. Jon's dream of his father's face on a weirwood tree put me in mind of God the Father and Bran on his god throne as God the son; with Jon rounding out the trinity as god, the holy ghost. Where Jon fits as the baptist comes with the six month age difference with Dany; who appears to be taking the savior or redeemer role. Lightbringer, the one who forges the sword (Dany) and the one who wields it or becomes the sword (Jon). Pure speculation but if Ned can have what appears to be green dreams; I wonder if Lyanna shared that trait and had foreknowledge of Jon. The weirwood tree weeping tears of blood with the sad countenance and long face seems analogous with Lyanna. And to top it off, we have the weeping woman lady of Lys statue in the HoB&W: A Feast for Crows When first entering the House of Black and White, Arya Stark notes the statue of a marble woman, 12 feet tall (3,66 meters). Real tears are trickling from the eyes, filling the bowl the woman cradled in her arms. The statue of a man with a lion's head stands nearby. At this point Arya cannot name the figures.[3] Early in her training, Arya is able to identify both the Weeping Woman and the Lion of Night.[2] A Dance with Dragons There is a statue crying silver tears outside the shrine of the Weeping Lady in Braavos.[1] msmecho.com/2015/04/29/grottos-blessed-virgin-mary-statue-to-be-adorned-with-crown/If the weeping woman represents Lyanna; who represents the lion of night?
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Post by min on Nov 30, 2016 9:58:31 GMT
From the World Book:
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 30, 2016 12:33:37 GMT
I am amazed what you two have dug up for the symbolism behind weeping tears of blood. Does this mean that we should suspect "divine" intervention at the tower of joy, or because of the smell of roses it's a fake scene? Or some of both?
I was wondering if Howland had a hand in any of this considering his experience on the Isle of Faces, his prayer and involvement with the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and his credit that Ned gave him for saving him from death by Dayne.
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Post by min on Nov 30, 2016 13:51:46 GMT
I am amazed what you two have dug up for the symbolism behind weeping tears of blood. Does this mean that we should suspect "divine" intervention at the tower of joy, or because of the smell of roses it's a fake scene? Or some of both? I was wondering if Howland had a hand in any of this considering his experience on the Isle of Faces, his prayer and involvement with the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and his credit that Ned gave him for saving him from death by Dayne. I don't know. I think the abduction story is a hoax for all the reasons that have been stated including justification for Robert's Rebellion itself. I don't think Lyanna was ever at the Tower of Joy. Lyanna is only associated with it in Ned's dreams. Elements of dreams stand in for other things troubling or familiar to the dreamer and are mixed up with elements of events. I do find it interesting that Martin places a weeping woman statue at the Eyrie. An Eyrie is an eagle's nest and the eagle is associated with Zeus and is his personal symbol along with the thunderbolt, bull, and oak tree. Thor is also associated with eagles, thunderbolts etc. The Eyrie is Robert Baratheon's 'nest' for a time. The Eyrie might also be considered a kind of crow's nest perched on top of the Giant's Lance. I've always wondered about the symbolism of the constuction of the gates, way castles etc and I wonder if we are being told something. Is it possible that Lyanna went to the Eyrie after Harrenhall? Why travel all the way back North and South again for Brandon's wedding? Did Robert take advantage of Lyanna at the Eyrie symbolized by the struggle and the broken torso of the weeping woman taking a wound in the torso or womb? Consider the approach to the Eyrie the Bloody Gate: loss of virginity the Moon Gate: female reproductive cycle the Snow Gate: conception Robert's deathbed conversation with Ned is also interesting. He's drugged, his mind is wandering through past and present. His thoughts are on seeing Lyanna: On the surface, Robert's grief seems to be about Danaerys; but I question whether this is a darker secret involving Lyanna. With nobody at the Eyrie to tell him no. The question of divine intervention is interesting. If Ned was supposed to die and this was a green dream of Howland's; the life that paid for death might be Lyanna's since Ned is still god's instrument. Ned also wonders why the gods fill men with lust. Lyanna's pregnancy may have been as 'ordained' as Bran's fall from the tower.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 30, 2016 14:47:57 GMT
Couple things real fast... Jon the Baptist did occur to me as a reference to Jon Snow. I was thinking that a Rhaegar/Aegon combo fit the JtB profile...the idea that he was destined to be a prophet ("the PtwP"), was born to shepherd the real Messiah ("His is the song of Ice and Fire"), born to a mother with conception issues, 6 months or so older than the holy child, and of course killed by a tyrannical king because his hot daughter asked it. (Herod = Tywin, Salome = Cersei; could apply to either Rhaegar's death or Aegon's death). I do find it interesting that Martin places a weeping woman statue at the Eyrie. Is it possible that Lyanna went to the Eyrie after Harrenhall? Another thing to consider is that the weeping woman at the Eyrie is significant for Sansa, who may be partially mirroring Lyanna's journey. And we still don't know what's going to happen to her re: her arranged marriages and whatnot. Lyanna's pregnancy may have been as 'ordained' as Bran's fall from the tower. Yep!
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Post by min on Nov 30, 2016 16:41:26 GMT
I was thinking that a Rhaegar/Aegon combo fit the JtB profile...the idea that he was destined to be a prophet ("the PtwP"), was born to shepherd the real Messiah ("His is the song of Ice and Fire"), born to a mother with conception issues, 6 months or so older than the holy child, and of course killed by a tyrannical king because his hot daughter asked it. (Herod = Tywin, Salome = Cersei; could apply to either Rhaegar's death or Aegon's death). I'm of the mind that Aegon is the baby swap that corresponds to actions Jon took with Mance and Gilly. That is the common boy masquerading a prince. This mirrors Dany who loses Rhaego who should have been the Stallion who mounts the world. If Dany is Aerys and Ashara's she would be a common girl masquerading as a queen and in the same boat as Jon with a Royal father and common mother I think of Bran as the Prince who is Promised since BR and the Cotf have been waiting for him in for 200 years. Jon as the Red Sword and Dany as Lightbringer. Both are needed to become AAR. They are the fire and ice of the song together. Dany is perhaps an incarnation of the Maid of Light while Jon may be the incarnation of the Lion of Night or the Night's King. As symbolic figures the 3 KG at the ToJ represent the sword, shield and horse. Sam with Jon (red sword) , Bran (shield wall) and Dany (100,000 Dothraki screameers on horseback). Another interesting aspect of the virgin statue is the the wood carving of mother and child at Bear Island. Not to mention that Maege's youngest daughter is named in memory of Lyanna. So I wonder if Lyanna gave birth there. I have this strange notion that the Mormonts are descendants of Joramun and this is why they were gifted with Bear Island; it's rustic great house; befitting the memory of the old king beyond the Wall. Perhaps, Longclaw comes with the Mormont's from the time of the Night's King by way of Joramun. Although that doesn't fit with the timelines but what does? If this is the case; it may be that the Joramun was a wildling fathered by a man of the night's watch who grew up at the wall and then returned to the wildlings at some point; along the lines of Mance Rayder. Perhaps there's even some Stark bloodline in there somewhere. Joer, Jorah, Joramun and there was a king Jorah Stark in the tombs of Winterfell.
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