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Post by min on Dec 4, 2016 20:15:19 GMT
It goes back to the original posts about the weirwoods weeping blood; one of which has Stark features and the Jon/Ned parralel of baby swaps where there are no good choices; only less grievous choices. Jon has to kill the boy in himself and become a bloody bastard to take Gilly's baby from her to save Mance's son. Something the mother wouldn't do given a choice. So what did Ned do in this same situation? Was he involved in swapping Elia's baby before Gregor killed them just in case? He was there first. Was Ashara there? What was Ned doing before Tywin Lannister arrived besides telling Jamie to get off the throne?
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 4, 2016 21:16:09 GMT
While I do believe a baby swap, I never believed Ned did the swapping because Sam is his inversion. The swapper would be Jon's inversion, another Lord Commander, which would have to be either Tywin or Bloodraven. On Bloodraven's side we have the Catholic miraculous symbolism of the crown of roses and weeping blood so maybe the baby swapping was miraculous?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 4, 2016 21:20:34 GMT
The swapper would be Jon's inversion, another Lord Commander *cough*Jeor*cough
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 4, 2016 21:40:09 GMT
Of course! I feel so stupid! He must have made the swap before becoming LC. Maybe he really was Rhaella's hairy Qarl the Maid?
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 4, 2016 21:41:51 GMT
Could it be that Ned didn't know who Jon was?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 4, 2016 22:17:41 GMT
Could it be that Ned didn't know who Jon was? I would have to work out a spreadsheet that merges various theories together, but...what if Ned figured out that Lyanna had a child, and that child was part of a swap? If you think about it, Jeor being the one to make a swap to save some other royal baby (Aegon?) would totally explain his later treatment of Jon when he joins the NW - requesting him as his personal steward, treating him like a son, giving him Longclaw. Guilt. Redemption. Jon is not a child of Ned's body, but he is his blood - I wonder if Ned made some kind of "trade", a swap of a swap if you will, to get Jon back. Like, "Aegon is dead, but I'll give you this pretty little blonde girl Targ baby (or her pregnant mom) if you let me have that dark sullen one in exchange." Using Dany in particular as the bait, it works to explain Ned's thoughts as well - his trade sent her into exile, abandoning her in the Free Cities. Throwing another child under the bus to save one of his "blood" would certainly result in old guilts, broken promises, and shame. I'd have to look at the Mormont/Rebellion timelines again but it's worth considering!
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 4, 2016 23:26:39 GMT
Could it be that Ned didn't know who Jon was? I would have to work out a spreadsheet that merges various theories together, but...what if Ned figured out that Lyanna had a child, and that child was part of a swap? If you think about it, Jeor being the one to make a swap to save some other royal baby (Aegon?) would totally explain his later treatment of Jon when he joins the NW - requesting him as his personal steward, treating him like a son, giving him Longclaw. Guilt. Redemption. Jon is not a child of Ned's body, but he is his blood - I wonder if Ned made some kind of "trade", a swap of a swap if you will, to get Jon back. Like, "Aegon is dead, but I'll give you this pretty little blonde girl Targ baby (or her pregnant mom) if you let me have that dark sullen one in exchange." Using Dany in particular as the bait, it works to explain Ned's thoughts as well - his trade sent her into exile, abandoning her in the Free Cities. Throwing another child under the bus to save one of his "blood" would certainly result in old guilts, broken promises, and shame. I'd have to look at the Mormont/Rebellion timelines again but it's worth considering! I think you may recall that I suspect Asha is Rhaella's parallel inversion, so the Wayward Bride is the inverted story of Rhaella and her "Qarl" who I suspect is Jeor. Asha, by the way has hostages: Lady Glover and her children...so Rhaella had somebody and I'm thinking it was Ashara. Lady Sybelle Glover of Deepwood Motte has two children: her son Gawen and infant daughter Erena. If it turns out that Aegon was actually Ashara's child and not Elia's, then this matches Lady Glover, and the infant daughter is Dany. Asha receives a letter via raven from Barrowton, which is directly south of Deepwood Motte where she's staying. First an aside about the slanted but paralleled locations of the inversions. The inversion to Barrowton is somewhere around the Eyrie, Fingers, or maybe Gulltown, while the inversion to Deepwood Motte is White Harbor. I know this doesn't exactly line up in a straight line from west to east, but the "demarcation" line is already cock-eyed. If you look on the map Casterly Rock is at a slant to Dorne, and the Iron Islands at a slant to Dragonstone...that same northwest to southeast slanted line connects Deepwood Motte to White Harbor. (am I making sense?) ANYWAYS if you have managed to follow me it would make sense and connect the dots with some of the storylines to connect the Vale and White Harbor to Rhaella, Ashara, and any baby swap, with the final and slanted parallel inversion of Bear Island for Braavos. Back to the letter Asha receives with the "piece of prince" that Ramsay sent to each northern house. Asha tried to recall who would be in Barrowton. " Some northern lord, no friend of mine." And that seal … the Boltons of the Dreadfort went into battle beneath pink banners spattered with little drops of blood. It only stood to reason that they would use pink sealing wax as well. This is poison that I hold, she thought. I ought to burn it.
The Dreadfort and little drops of blood seem to evoke Rhaegar's death and the rubies like drops of blood on his breastplate. If my assumptions about Asha being Rhaella is true and that she didn't stay on Dragonstone, but continued up the coast to White Harbor, then some " northern lord, no friend of mine" could have been Ned, and he had sent the news of Rhaegar's death at the Trident via raven to White Harbor where she was staying. Poisonous news indeed.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 5, 2016 16:07:25 GMT
Tbh, I get a little confused trying to follow along with the inversions...I don't doubt they are there, but my brain has trouble following some of the threads.
I think I'm going to focus on "stuff we know" from the current story, like Ned's shame and Jeor's weird renunciation of his family name and legacy, and try to tie those in with an 'action'. Now that I think more on Jeor joining the NW, it sounds more and more like he willingly banished himself to what is basically a glorified penal colony - taking the black in the current culture is primarily a last-resort, no-chances-left sort of option, and I'm curious as to what Jeor DID that left him to make that decision.
Armstark made a comment in the Heresy thread about his rendering Longclaw unrecognizable as a Mormont family sword - combine that with his choice to take the black, Jorah's banishment, and then the Mormont women's "movement" so to speak to keep the Mormont name/not take the surname of husbands/give their children the Mormont name, and it almost seems as though Jeor was attempting to erase the Mormont name from the records of man (with the ladies resisting)...like scouring a stain.
What did the male Mormonts do?
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 5, 2016 16:41:59 GMT
Tbh, I get a little confused trying to follow along with the inversions...I don't doubt they are there, but my brain has trouble following some of the threads. I think I'm going to focus on "stuff we know" from the current story, like Ned's shame and Jeor's weird renunciation of his family name and legacy, and try to tie those in with an 'action'. Now that I think more on Jeor joining the NW, it sounds more and more like he willingly banished himself to what is basically a glorified penal colony - taking the black in the current culture is primarily a last-resort, no-chances-left sort of option, and I'm curious as to what Jeor DID that left him to make that decision. Armstark made a comment in the Heresy thread about his rendering Longclaw unrecognizable as a Mormont family sword - combine that with his choice to take the black, Jorah's banishment, and then the Mormont women's "movement" so to speak to keep the Mormont name/not take the surname of husbands/give their children the Mormont name, and it almost seems as though Jeor was attempting to erase the Mormont name from the records of man (with the ladies resisting)...like scouring a stain. What did the male Mormonts do? Sorry about that. I was offering up a suggested route for what may have happened based on the parallels I saw. Do you think Jeor was actually guilty for "selling" Ashara, Aegon, and Dany to slavers and let Jorah take the blame? Maybe Ashara, Aegon, and Dany weren't really sold, but their departure from Bear Island was kept secret, until Ned hears they are gone. Then he mistakenly believes the poachers Jorah sold were Ashara and kids?
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Dec 7, 2016 1:29:30 GMT
I had done an essay a while back looking at the weeping woman.It usually occurred in stories where the womman had been wronged by some man and in some cases i.e La Llorohana resorted to killing his children to spite him.
But in all cases the woman was wronged, shamed or put aside for another.It is one of revenge.
The exception of course and noted above is Mother Mary who wept for the innocent blood usually children.
I haven't put this together in full but its an idea I've been kicking around.I believe in the SA and that Rickard and Arryn through Robert's blood planned to do a little hatching of their own.
Ever since Aemon pointed out Stannis i got the sence that something else could happen.
Its my darker Stark idea that Lyanna bolted because daddy dearest and they planned to do a little sacrifice off their own.
I admit to this being my gut feeling but i can't help but think the Starks hands are a bit dirtier than we think.
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Post by min on Dec 7, 2016 2:28:59 GMT
Do you think Jeor was actually guilty for "selling" Ashara, Aegon, and Dany to slavers and let Jorah take the blame?
The Bear and the Maiden Fair?
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Post by min on Dec 7, 2016 2:30:28 GMT
I had done an essay a while back looking at the weeping woman.It usually occurred in stories where the womman had been wronged by some man and in some cases i.e La Llorohana resorted to killing his children to spite him. But in all cases the woman was wronged, shamed or put aside for another.It is one of revenge. The exception of course and noted above is Mother Mary who wept for the innocent blood usually children. I haven't put this together in full but its an idea I've been kicking around.I believe in the SA and that Rickard and Arryn through Robert's blood planned to do a little hatching of their own. Ever since Aemon pointed out Stannis i got the sence that something else could happen. Its my darker Stark idea that Lyanna bolted because daddy dearest and they planned to do a little sacrifice off their own.I admit to this being my gut feeling but i can't help but think the Starks hands are a bit dirtier than we think. I'm not sure what you mean. Was Moon Tea involved?
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Dec 8, 2016 1:19:25 GMT
I had done an essay a while back looking at the weeping woman.It usually occurred in stories where the womman had been wronged by some man and in some cases i.e La Llorohana resorted to killing his children to spite him. But in all cases the woman was wronged, shamed or put aside for another.It is one of revenge. The exception of course and noted above is Mother Mary who wept for the innocent blood usually children. I haven't put this together in full but its an idea I've been kicking around.I believe in the SA and that Rickard and Arryn through Robert's blood planned to do a little hatching of their own. Ever since Aemon pointed out Stannis i got the sence that something else could happen. Its my darker Stark idea that Lyanna bolted because daddy dearest and they planned to do a little sacrifice off their own.I admit to this being my gut feeling but i can't help but think the Starks hands are a bit dirtier than we think. I'm not sure what you mean. Was Moon Tea involved? Oh what I'm saying is that Jon was most likely meant to be sacrificed.
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Post by min on Dec 8, 2016 1:54:10 GMT
I'm not sure what you mean. Was Moon Tea involved? Oh what I'm saying is that Jon was most likely meant to be sacrificed. Oh hah! I thought this was some plot to re-arrange marriage contracts with Lyanna going to Jon Arryn instead of Robert. With Cersei to Robert instead of Lysa Arryn. With perhaps Lyanna already pregnant; and proven fertile like Lysa. The fond of flowers business and the tansy tea episode that Catelyn describes with Lysa. Being forced to abort a child she wanted to keep. I thought this might have been the reason that she fled. Which screwed up all the alliances.
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Post by min on Dec 8, 2016 17:04:38 GMT
How the game is played: spreading lies among the servants and employing armies of singers. Was it the Queen of Thorns who spread the rumors about Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna. Did she employ an army of singers?
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