|
Post by Weasel Pie on Dec 30, 2016 20:39:27 GMT
There’s a bar/restaurant I’ve been to a few times called Finn MacCool’s, and I’m pretty sure there are plenty of bar/restaurants on several continents with the same name. Also pretty sure most people know that Finn MacCool, along with being a badass Giant hero from the mythologies of Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man, most famously created the Giant’s Causeway and the Isle of Man. But I was looking at this logo: And it got me thinking, and here I am starting a project to discuss the connection between Irish/Scottish Mythology and A Song of Ice and Fire. Why? Because George RR Martin specifically mentions the Sidhe when asked about the Others. This proves to me that he had the Sidhe in mind while crafting his story. The Sidhe of course are the supernatural inhabitants of a parallel or hidden world in Irish/Scottish mythology – elves, fairies - who were driven underground by Norse invaders. So let’s talk about Finn MacCool to start. Fionn (meaning white/blonde/young male deer [!]) mac Cumhaill (son of Cumhail pronounced “cool”) was known as Deimne as a boy. Deimne, in the Ulster and Connacht dialects, would have the “De” pronounced close to a J. The “I” is a long “I” sound. The “m” is a barely heard almost non-existent “v”, while the “ne” is pronounced with an “n” sound and a disappearing schwa sound. JI-n(eh).
Jine, son of Cool. Jon Snow, people. Heh. I’m aware how self-serving all of that is, and I guess you all know that I believe Jon Snow is the son of an Other (the Night's King), but seriously, I hope you all bear with me. There is no doubt in my mind that George was more than inspired by Irish Mythology, and what I’ve found supports several fan theories, although the ultimate question (who are Jon’s parents?) is not answered here with certainty. What I’ve found can support Jon as an Otherbaby, Lyanna as a “coldhanded” mother… but it also supports Mance, Robert and Arthur as possibilities for Jon's father.This paragraph is a late insertion in my opening post. I figured I should google “Jon Snow Finn MacCool” to see if there was already anything out there, and … well this is crazy but snowfyre mentioned the name similarity in passing three years ago in a post in Heresy. GMTA. So what struck me about that logo? Probably because I wondered about the dogs. One of Finn MacCool's dogs is named Bran.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Dec 30, 2016 20:41:46 GMT
So first, I'll relay the story of Finn's dogs.
The dogs are Finn's cousins or nephew/niece, depending on the story, who were the offspring of a human woman who was turned into a dog while she was pregnant. Finn has a virtually unbreakable bond with them. The dogs were able to discern when other animals had once been humans, and saved a deer/woman named Sadbh from the hunt. Sadbh could be human with Finn, and they married and had a son. She was lured into the forest and reverted to deer form, and Finn always searched for her. I'll let you read the rest of the story here.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Dec 30, 2016 22:36:38 GMT
Jine, son of Cool. Jon Snow, people. Heh. One of Finn MacCool's dogs is named Bran. Very interesting stuff, WeaselPie! Silhouetted against the dying sun, on the edge of the cliff, stood a red deer. Fionn called out Sadbh’s name. The deer turned, looked at him, then whirled and jumped from the cliff. It is said that Bran turned and looked once at Fionn, then willingly followed the deer. WTF! No apparent reason given?
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Dec 30, 2016 22:46:37 GMT
Jine, son of Cool. Jon Snow, people. Heh. One of Finn MacCool's dogs is named Bran. Very interesting stuff, WeaselPie! Silhouetted against the dying sun, on the edge of the cliff, stood a red deer. Fionn called out Sadbh’s name. The deer turned, looked at him, then whirled and jumped from the cliff. It is said that Bran turned and looked once at Fionn, then willingly followed the deer. WTF! No apparent reason given? TY! I've got a bunch of other stories I'm trying to get in order, this was just an intro. Crazy, eh? We know GRRM visited Hadrian's Wall and environs, I have no doubt he would have read the local mythologies. Too many similarities.
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 31, 2016 1:11:34 GMT
Oh very interesting! Especially since I associate Lyanna with the song of Wenda the White Fawn.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 31, 2016 3:11:28 GMT
That was sortof sad. Lots of associations there for sure, triggering thoughts of our current wolf brat pack of course, but also Last Hero-ey stuff (the LH and his dog companion on a trek), Night's King stuff (forsaking the NW in favor of his forbidden queen) and Wenda stuff that min mentioned. I have to say, though, the first place my brain went with that was unexpected, though related. Part of this was influenced by the talk of skinchanging & second life in Heresy, btw. Deer, dog, skinchanging, being brought home to rest. Weird leap warning, bear with me. Ned brought home Lyanna's bones to be buried in Winterfell's crypts...but he also made point to return William Dustin's big red horse. Why in the world would Ned have gone to all that trouble to bring back a horse, particularly when he couldn't bring back the rider? Why couldn't he have left that horse in Dorne, at Starfall, or sold it for return passage or something? Why was it important to drag that damn horse all the way back to Barrowton? What if...the horse was no longer just a horse?
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 31, 2016 16:01:06 GMT
To append to that thought: "A pair of centaurs, those two." Centaur, of course, head/upper torso (heart) of a human, body of a horse.
Reading some interesting mythology right now on that, particularly Centauros' father Ixion. Won't clog up this thread though.
Back to Finn & his journeys, we have that connection with dog and deer. Can you tie that in with the mom direwolf and the stag that killed her? (already an inversion there)
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Dec 31, 2016 21:53:04 GMT
Reading some interesting mythology right now on that, particularly Centauros' father Ixion. Worthy of another thread!
|
|
|
Post by wolfmaid7 on Jan 1, 2017 0:55:30 GMT
There’s a bar/restaurant I’ve been to a few times called Finn MacCool’s, and I’m pretty sure there are plenty of bar/restaurants on several continents with the same name. Also pretty sure most people know that Finn MacCool, along with being a badass Giant hero from the mythologies of Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man, most famously created the Giant’s Causeway and the Isle of Man. But I was looking at this logo: And it got me thinking, and here I am starting a project to discuss the connection between Irish/Scottish Mythology and A Song of Ice and Fire. Why? Because George RR Martin specifically mentions the Sidhe when asked about the Others. This proves to me that he had the Sidhe in mind while crafting his story. The Sidhe of course are the supernatural inhabitants of a parallel or hidden world in Irish/Scottish mythology – elves, fairies - who were driven underground by Norse invaders. So let’s talk about Finn MacCool to start. Fionn (meaning white/blonde/young male deer [!]) mac Cumhaill (son of Cumhail pronounced “cool”) was known as Deimne as a boy. Deimne, in the Ulster and Connacht dialects, would have the “De” pronounced close to a J. The “I” is a long “I” sound. The “m” is a barely heard almost non-existent “v”, while the “ne” is pronounced with an “n” sound and a disappearing schwa sound. JI-n(eh).
Jine, son of Cool. Jon Snow, people. Heh. I’m aware how self-serving all of that is, and I guess you all know that I believe Jon Snow is the son of an Other, but seriously, I hope you all bear with me. There is no doubt in my mind that George was more than inspired by Irish Mythology, and what I’ve found supports several fan theories, although the ultimate question (who are Jon’s parents?) is not answered here with certainty. What I’ve found can support Jon as an Otherbaby, Lyanna as a “coldhanded” mother… but it also supports Mance, Robert and Arthur as possibilities for Jon's father. This paragraph is a late insertion in my opening post. I figured I should google “Jon Snow Finn MacCool” to see if there was already anything out there, and … well this is crazy but snowfyre mentioned the name similarity in passing three years ago in a post in Heresy. GMTA. So what struck me about that logo? Probably because I wondered about the dogs. One of Finn MacCool's dogs is named Bran.
This is absolutely amazing and i like where you are going with this.Will post more later on this.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Jan 1, 2017 14:33:55 GMT
Glad you all see the similarities so far too, not just in the names but also in the themes, especially the skinchanging. But it gets better. This story entirely parallels the story of Bael the Bard (and possibly Lyanna's kidnapping). There are also nods to the Night's Watch and "For The Watch." Finn's father was Cumhal, the leader of a group of famous Irish Warriors called the Fianna. He wanted to marry Muireann, the daughter of the Druid Tadg mac Nuadat, but Tadg did not approve, so Cumhal kidnapped her.I enjoyed reading this guys version of the story so I'll paste it here. Bael the Bard anyone? So Tadg called upon the High King of Ireland - Conn of the Hundred battles - to intervene. Cumhal became an outlaw, and was set upon by his former brothers the Fianna, and killed by Goll "the one-eyed" mac Morna, his former ally who had become leader of the Fianna when Cumhal was ousted. This has shades of "For the Watch" as well as Rhaegar and Robert at the Trident. Muireann, the Druid's daughter, was delivered back home. Pregnant. Her father Tadg wanted to burn her alive, but King Conn intervened, and Muirreann was sent off to live with a pair of Druids named Bodhmall and her husband Fiacal. Some versions of the story say the pair were warrior women. Regardless, Finn was born, and was called Diemne to protect him. If we're talking about Lyanna here, then Rickard was a threat to her, which is something we've talked about in Heresy. Hrm. Other version Finn was raised by the Druids/warriors and taught essential skills. Next part of the story is in progress.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jan 1, 2017 15:40:20 GMT
whacking him in the crunch really hard with a shillelagh. In my research I wasn't able to determine whether or not the blushing bride was a willing participant in this home invasion / eloping, but I suppose that when you're dealing with medieval marriages this is really only a minor detail. This guy is my spirit animal. Muirreann was sent off to live with a pair of Druids named Bodhmall and her husband Fiacal. Some versions of the story say the pair were warrior women. when the baby was born he had the kid sent off to live with a couple crazy-ass warrior women in the middle of the woods somewhere. BEAR ISLAND
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Jan 1, 2017 15:45:41 GMT
oh my god. Smoking gun right there!
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Jan 1, 2017 16:40:49 GMT
The Mormont women parallel was easy to spot, but Cumhal is harder.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Jan 1, 2017 16:56:46 GMT
The Mormont women parallel was easy to spot, but Cumhal is harder. He's a bit of a conflation.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Jan 1, 2017 20:02:55 GMT
I came across this excellent version of the Boyhood of Finn Mac Cumhal. Slightly different version of Cumhal: And in this version, Deimne has an older brother, but more interesting is that Deimne (Finn/Jon) was destined to be captain of the Fianna - which I've already compared to the Night's Watch. So Deimne grows up strong and fair, and although men are jealous of him and try to kill him, he prevails and becomes known as Finn (the fair one), and the Fianna hear of him. And Goll figures out the boy must be the son of Cumhal and Muireann. Now this part sounds like Jon leaving for the Wall, as much as it sounds like sending a child away for his safety. So Finn takes off roaming with his new group of friends, and they come across the old allies/brothers of his father Cumhal, who have been living in the forest. And Finn locates his Uncle amongst them. (Jon finding Benjen? Hrm). Uncle Crimmal relays the story of the son of Cumhal being destined to lead the Fianna, but that he should be in possession of certain magical items. This reminds me a bit of the cache of dragonglass and the horn found at the fist, and also reminds me of having an ancestral weapon. min Finn, in his travels, came across a woman crying tears of blood over the body of her son, so Finn and his men avenge the son's death... with the aid of supernatural beings who use wind to help them. The vow is also interesting here. This scene reminds me of Cat over Robb's body and they eventual revenge slaying of Walder Frey. Finn asks his Uncle whatever happened to his mother Muireann/Murna? He learns she wed a southern lord, and still lives. Finn also remembers meeting her again when he was a boy. This is nuts, other than the wolf's head. Somewhat reminds me of Mance visiting Winterfell when Jon was about six. We also have Murna of the White Neck, which is so similar to Wenda the White Fawn. I know there are theories out there that Wenda is Lyanna or possibly Ashara etc.
|
|