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Post by Melifeather on Apr 8, 2016 3:42:20 GMT
I hadn't thought of the connection like that between the drowned men and the wights. You're giving a nice interpretation for my own theory about the drowned men and their connection to the wights though No I seriously need to find the time to put that one together, and what you're saying here touches on my thoughts. I think the religion of the drowned men was probably started long before Damphair, he just joined and dedicated his life to the Drowned God after he drowned and was brought back. There is however, no mention whatsoever of the Drowned men in the tale of Harren the Black, who we know was Iron Born. So maybe that right there is a clue as to how long they've drowning their children. There is mention of a less drastic drowning, more like a baptism, and how Damphair thinks it's a silly nod to the Drowned God. To me it sounds as if there has been a revival of the more drastic form more recently though. I look forward to reading what you've come up with. When Jon asks Sam for more information on the wights and white walkers, Sam says "all the tales agree", but tales are, well "tales" and not first person accounts. Could it be that the tales are false memories? With the opening of the hinge the religion of the drowned men is, for lack of a better word, over-laid upon the north so the dead rise again just like the drowned men are resuscitated. Maybe there aren't any historical records of accounts, because they never actually happened?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Apr 8, 2016 3:51:22 GMT
There is mention of a less drastic drowning, more like a baptism, and how Damphair thinks it's a silly nod to the Drowned God. To me it sounds as if there has been a revival of the more drastic form more recently though. Sortof like how Ned cleaning Ice in the godswood or Luwin bleeding out under the weirwood is a silly nod to the actual human sacrifices made to the old gods, a tradition that also hasn't been practiced in thousands of.....oh, wait.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 8, 2016 4:16:44 GMT
There is mention of a less drastic drowning, more like a baptism, and how Damphair thinks it's a silly nod to the Drowned God. To me it sounds as if there has been a revival of the more drastic form more recently though. Sortof like how Ned cleaning Ice in the godswood or Luwin bleeding out under the weirwood is a silly nod to the actual human sacrifices made to the old gods, a tradition that also hasn't been practiced in thousands of.....oh, wait. So true! I hadn't spotted that parallel! That's a good one! Maybe these are reflections (like a mirror) of the old gods then? There are passages about the trees and snows drinking up the blood. Maybe the awful traditions of sacrifice from the past are part of what's being held back with the ward?
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 8, 2016 4:23:39 GMT
Random thought...my mind is percolating the thought that...indulge me here and lets just say the Others were First Men that performed the blood sacrifices? But discovered on accident how much the weirwoods loved soaking up the blood? I don't think I can properly describe what I'm thinking. I imagine the Others as being like the Boltons. Psychopathic killers that enjoy torture and violent acts with a lot of bloodshed. They chased "the maids" through the woods. The Children of the Forest were the "maids" or people that had aligned themselves with the Children...in any case they were hunted down and killed for sport. Basically they were mostly evil all the time. All this bloodletting, however fed the godhead...what my mind is trying to work out is "but why?"
Now I sound like the crazy person!
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 8, 2016 11:55:54 GMT
Various characters in the book play Cyvasse, and the description makes it sound a little bit like chess but with more creative pieces. Before play begins, the players place a shield in front of their pieces while they setup. Metaphorically this shield symbolizes the ward on the Wall. With the wheel of time a constant, everything that has happened before will happen again. The Targaryens are a great example where we can see the effects of the wheel of time. Some Pig No Doubt just completed a comparison of Aegon IV vs Aegon II and she made a list of 50+ parallels where the two kings did similar things. The wheel just came around and Aegon IV was a repeat of Aegon II. Here's the essay: A Comparison of Kings The squeaky iron hinge has been opened, metaphorically a new Cyvasse game has been set up. The wheel of time has circled round again and the same game is about to unfold, only this time the pieces have been set up in different places. The pieces will get the same situations as what has happened before, only there will be differing results. The 8000 year old religion of the Greyjoys is now playing out over the north, but the drowned men are now wights. I'm not sure how the white walkers fit in here. I know they are white shadows and similar to the shadows Mel created. I do see a connection to Craster. He may have been leaving his sons exposed, but with the open hinge those lives are now shadows. If you also consider the "waves" of invaders to Westeros, the Children likely looked at it as the Wheel of Time circling round again. The "shield" was put up to try to prevent a repeat of that same story happening the same way again.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 8, 2016 15:34:08 GMT
Random thought...my mind is percolating the thought that...indulge me here and lets just say the Others were First Men that performed the blood sacrifices? But discovered on accident how much the weirwoods loved soaking up the blood? I don't think I can properly describe what I'm thinking. I imagine the Others as being like the Boltons. Psychopathic killers that enjoy torture and violent acts with a lot of bloodshed. They chased "the maids" through the woods. The Children of the Forest were the "maids" or people that had aligned themselves with the Children...in any case they were hunted down and killed for sport. Basically they were mostly evil all the time. All this bloodletting, however fed the godhead...what my mind is trying to work out is "but why?" Now I sound like the crazy person! No, I think I see where you might be going with this. If there were certain groups of First Men that were particularly bloodthirsty and they chose the Singers as their preferred game, then I can see the Greenseers in the trees both growing in strength from the blood letting being done and also growing in outrage. Blood, like any decomposing organic matter is, in reality, a nutrient. I can see blood also being a magical strengthener in this case, since there are other magics we know of that are rooted in blood and fire. So if those with the power to invade the bodies of others, as I would think all skinchangers with a higher degree of talent can, then they could've invaded the bodies of the FM and turned them against their own people. Over time those bodies could then have become what we see them as now, just ice and vapour. Is this similar to what was floating around in your head?
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 8, 2016 16:14:13 GMT
Random thought...my mind is percolating the thought that...indulge me here and lets just say the Others were First Men that performed the blood sacrifices? But discovered on accident how much the weirwoods loved soaking up the blood? I don't think I can properly describe what I'm thinking. I imagine the Others as being like the Boltons. Psychopathic killers that enjoy torture and violent acts with a lot of bloodshed. They chased "the maids" through the woods. The Children of the Forest were the "maids" or people that had aligned themselves with the Children...in any case they were hunted down and killed for sport. Basically they were mostly evil all the time. All this bloodletting, however fed the godhead...what my mind is trying to work out is "but why?" Now I sound like the crazy person! No, I think I see where you might be going with this. If there were certain groups of First Men that were particularly bloodthirsty and they chose the Singers as their preferred game, then I can see the Greenseers in the trees both growing in strength from the blood letting being done and also growing in outrage. Blood, like any decomposing organic matter is, in reality, a nutrient. I can see blood also being a magical strengthener in this case, since there are other magics we know of that are rooted in blood and fire. So if those with the power to invade the bodies of others, as I would think all skinchangers with a higher degree of talent can, then they could've invaded the bodies of the FM and turned them against their own people. Over time those bodies could then have become what we see them as now, just ice and vapour. Is this similar to what was floating around in your head? YES!
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 28, 2022 19:50:28 GMT
The House of the Dragon utilized a dagger inscribed with text that can only be read when heated: From my blood come the prince that was promised...and his will be the song of ice and fire.
GRRM has said that Aegon the Conqueror forged the blade and that it has been passed down from king to king - ironically much like the oft discussed Muskgrave Ritual that has come up more than a few times in the Heresy threads.
For the uninitiated, an explanation of the Musgrave ritual should be explained. In short it's a Sherlock Holmes story about one of his first cases - the disappearance of a maid and butler employed by Holmes' university friend, Reginald Musgrave connected to a mysterious ritual.
The pair vanished after Musgrave had dismissed Brunton for secretly reading a family document, the Musgrave Ritual. The Ritual, which dates from the 17th century, reads:
'Whose was it?' 'His who is gone.' 'Who shall have it?' 'He who will come.' 'What was the month?' 'The sixth from the first.' 'Where was the sun?' 'Over the oak.' 'Where was the shadow?' 'Under the elm.' 'How was it stepped?' 'North by ten and by ten, east by five and by five, south by two and by two, west by one and by one, and so under.' 'What shall we give for it?' 'All that is ours.' 'Why should we give it?' 'For the sake of the trust.'
The riddle revealed that the relics found in the bag were the medieval gold and gemstone crown of St Edward and belonged to King Charles I’s ("His who is gone") which was kept hidden for his successor – his son, Charles II ("He who will come"), who would not be crowned until 11 years after the execution of Charles I. The ritual had been a guide to retrieving this important symbol, and Reginald confirms that one of his ancestors, Sir Ralph Musgrave, was a king's man. Holmes theorized that the original holder of the ritual had died before teaching his son about its significance. It had thus become nothing more than a quaint custom for more than 200 years.
The dagger is the riddle that no one really knows the significance of. It's appeared in ASOIAF a number of times, and many believe that the search for the prince that was promised was a riddle that has been the driving force behind the Targaryen family for 300 years.
The Greyjoys and Aeron Damphair are mummers acting in plays that used to star the Targaryens and Blackfyres. As readers we suspect that the prince that was promised was connected to the growing threat from the north and the return of the Others. The symbolic nature of The Prophet and the religion of the Greyjoys suggests that this theory might be true.
Take a critical look at the religion of the Drowned God. The faithful are purposely drowned and resuscitated so that what is dead can rise again stronger and harder. It's a pretty good description of the wights, don't you think? You might even say wights come in waves out of a great northern sea and that the Wall is a dam holding it all back.
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