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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Jan 18, 2017 22:56:25 GMT
Forgive me if this has already been posted, but I find this too irresistible to keep to myself (and I know it would go unappreciated in Westeros). I've noticed that a few posters on Westeros seem to be engaging in an almost free style word association, with a number of names and meanings and origins of said names. Some of this has resulted in almost absurd results, but some of the associations have been pretty interesting.
So I thought I'd give it a try with our favorite topic, the tower of joy. In Old English, tower was tor, while joy was wynn. I know we've had some Tor______ in the books, and a shitload of _____wynn or Wynn____. So I wondered if we had a Torwynn, it sounded familiar to me. There actually is one in the Worldbook, but being the Worldbook, I promptly ignored it.
We have one tantalizingly close one in ASOS, though, Tormund's son, Torwynd the tame, and the passages about it I found pretty funny. Here is the first passage:
Ok, so my first thought was to roll my eyes, because of course it leads me to a passage about an "abduction" of a young "maiden". And of course it ends with Munda liking old Longspear, because you, know, he didn't get his nickname for fighting with a stick with a pointy end.
But ol' Torwynd earns a re-mention in ADWD,
Ok, now this is getting interesting. We go from the maiden gladly being abducted to a darker theory that we've bandied about here, and in heresy, Lyanna's dead black palms. So every time Torwynd is mentioned it goes back to Lyanna (of course everything seems to go back to Lyanna).
But then it gets really precious:
Of course this could be read in a couple of ways. If we continue with our little theory, it could be read in one of two ways. Jon apologizing for being born, but Tormund telling him it weren't his fault. But I'm going to prefer to read it another way, it weren't Jon's doin'. Jon wasn't the kid born at the torwynn, aka tower of joy.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Jan 18, 2017 23:14:36 GMT
That is quite the word association. I Like it.
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Post by Melifeather on Jan 19, 2017 0:05:39 GMT
Jon put a hand on his shoulder. "I am so sorry." "Why? Weren't your doing. There's blood on your hands, aye, same as mine. But not his." Of course this could be read in a couple of ways. If we continue with our little theory, it could be read in one of two ways. Jon apologizing for being born, but Tormund telling him it weren't his fault. But I'm going to prefer to read it another way, it weren't Jon's doin'. Jon wasn't the kid born at the torwynn, aka tower of joy. I guess I was reading too literally as I read it as Tormund telling Jon that he's not responsible for Torwynn dying...which actually does translate to what you said. Jon isn't responsible for whomever died in the tower of joy. That could be more than one way also. IF Lyanna was in the tower of joy and died, it doesn't necessarily mean she died of childbirth complications. There's a lot of ways to die and having blood spattered all over her gown suggests an injury from a sword or some terrible hemorrhaging from an illness. So you can give birth, but die of something else. I do theorize though that a baby swap happened with Jon and that he was swapped for someone else. GRRM's "Schmobert and Schmatelyn" may even suggest that Catelyn had something to do with swapping a babe that she believed was Ned's for Jon with Robert's help. The motivation for this would be to remove Ned's elder child from Winterfell, even if it was a bastard, to ensure that Robb would inherit no matter what. There are a few posters that are really good at word association that would enjoy your idea, particularly Ravenous Reader, Pain killer Jane, Isobel Harper, and Seams. You should tag them and give them a link here. Tagging min because I think she'd enjoy this.
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Post by min on Jan 19, 2017 2:30:59 GMT
In Old English, tower was tor, while joy was wynn That's fascinating! It's actually Ned who has blood on his hands. Just curious about the etymology of wynn and the association with thorns and ash. Search Results wynn win/ noun noun: wynn; plural noun: wynns; noun: wyn; plural noun: wyns a runic letter, used in Old and Middle English, later replaced by w. Origin Old English, literally ‘joy’; so named because it is the first letter of this word. Compare with thorn (sense 3) and ash2 (sense 2). Search Results thorn THôrn/ noun noun: thorn; plural noun: thorns; noun: thorn bush; plural noun: thorn bushes 1. a stiff, sharp-pointed, straight or curved woody projection on the stem or other part of a plant. synonyms: prickle, spike, barb, spine "a thorn in her finger" a source of discomfort, annoyance, or difficulty; an irritation or an obstacle. "the issue has become a thorn in renewing the peace talks" 2. a thorny bush, shrub, or tree, especially a hawthorn. 3. an Old English and Icelandic runic letter, Þ or þ, representing the dental fricatives T͟H and TH. In English it was eventually superseded by the digraph th. Origin Old English, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch doorn and German Dorn .
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Post by Melifeather on Jan 19, 2017 12:25:28 GMT
Tagging Weasel Pie because he's our resident "word salad" chef!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jan 19, 2017 15:25:41 GMT
In Old English, tower was tor, while joy was wynn. Great catch! This is glorious. Lyanna's dead black palms I got quite a lot of flack for bringing this up years ago. And apropos to the language discussion, GRRM has given us a couple of misplaced modifiers - that I think are intentional. Anyway. Stream of consciousness - Torwynd the Tame became wighted. A tame wight? Was Lyanna in contact with a tame wight? Would Coldhands be considered one? Or was a "tame wight" her lover, and Lyanna was Coldhanded? Eyes as blue as death and all that. I've poked around with all of these ideas. "A man cannot change his nature, Ned." *cough* Otherbaby. But I'm going to prefer to read it another way, it weren't Jon's doin'. Jon wasn't the kid born at the torwynn, aka tower of joy. Like! I also like @melifeathers take on this, that it wasn't the birth that caused Lyanna's death. So either Jon is not Lyanna's son, or Lyanna gave birth elsewhere and /or Lyanna did not die in childbirth, something else killed her.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Jan 19, 2017 15:35:05 GMT
Ok, the more I delve the less that I think this is coincidental. Here is another passage in ASOS referencing Longspear and Munda:
I think it's apparent that Martin is making veiled references to the TOJ, the only question is what is he really saying?
When Longspear Ryk is first introduced he is described as:
Short, homely, and associated with a helm. Perhaps I'm biased (well I'm absolutely biased) but the whole thing reminds me of Howland Reed. Remember Meera Reed brought a helmet with her to Winterfell. Many suppose that the helmet was the one worn by the Knight of the laughing tree, and who else would have given her that helm other than Howland. And interestingly enough Jon muses that Ygritte reminds him of Arya, and Bran muses that Meera reminds him of Arya.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jan 19, 2017 15:43:19 GMT
freyfamilyreunion , you're going to love this Mund (from Tormund, torr-mund) hand palm (of the hand as a measure) trust security protection guardianship protector guardian the king’s peace fine for breach of the laws of protection or guardianship of the king’s peacemoney paid by bridegroom to bride’s father bridegroom’s gift to bride <~~~ Blue rose anyone? From www.oldenglishtranslator.co.uk/
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jan 19, 2017 15:50:56 GMT
Digging with the word Helm...
Character called Henk the Helm, shows up in ASoS Jon V
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jan 19, 2017 15:55:20 GMT
Short, homely, and associated with a helm Just as Longspear wore Qhorin's helm briefly, so do other helms in the book remain associated with their original owners, and are a possible means of impersonation while wearing them, especially Sandor's dog helm/Rorge. Then we have Gendry's helm. And even Rhaegar's.
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Post by min on Jan 19, 2017 16:23:03 GMT
"A man cannot change his nature, Ned. I'm liking the story between the lines concerning Howland. squint, squint... "Born in a castle like a lord!" He was very taken with the "castles" they'd seen, by which he meant watchtowers. Moat Cailin? The idea that the crown of roses represents a bride price interesting since it is Ned who reaches for it in his dream and is pricked by the thorns it contains. Whatever, he agreed to left him with blood on his hands and remorseless guilt. The smell of blood is predominant in Ned's memories. Robert is associated with the memory of leather and blood 'like a perfume' while Lyanna with the scent of roses. Lyanna's statue weeps tears of blood and so does Ned: As Robert states in GoT; he wished that Lyanna could have been buried in the open where the rain could wash her clean. Except that it is Ned with blood on his hands, relentless old guilts washed by rain down his face warm as blood. Another giant's helm:
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Post by Melifeather on Jan 19, 2017 16:27:30 GMT
OK you word salad chefs, there are a couple words that beg further exploration.
You said "wynn" meant "joy"...by chance does "ty" have an old English meaning too? (Tywin)
Tormund's Mund(a) uses "mund" twice, basically tower protector's protector
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jan 19, 2017 16:45:32 GMT
The closest "Ty" I can find is "Tye" a conjugate of "Tyn" which means to teach or instruct
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Post by Melifeather on Jan 19, 2017 19:21:10 GMT
"You bloody crows." Tormund's tone was gruff, yet strangely gentle. "That Longspear stole me daughter. Munda me little autumn apple. Took her right out o' my tent with all four o' her brothers about. Toregg slept through it, the great lout, and Torwynd... well, Torwynd the Tame, that says all that needs saying don't it?" Would you agree that Munda is referring to someone being kept under guard? The term of endearment, "me little autumn apple" makes me think of Snowfyre's horticulture essays about apples. I know Sansa was an apple and somehow Snowfyre had Jon as a "stone apple" because he made a connection to the "Bael apple". "...And Torwynd... it was the cold that claimed him. Always sickly, that one. He just up and died one night. The worst o' it, before we ever knew he'd died he rose pale with them blue eyes. Had to see to him m'self. That was hard, Jon." Tears shone in his eyes. "He wasn't much of a man, truth be told, but he'd been me little boy once, and I loved him" Stream of consciousness - Torwynd the Tame became wighted. A tame wight? Was Lyanna in contact with a tame wight? Would Coldhands be considered one? Or was a "tame wight" her lover, and Lyanna was Coldhanded? Eyes as blue as death and all that. I've poked around with all of these ideas. Do you think Torwynd is Lyanna or Howland? Could it be a reference to his perhaps being a greenseer versus a wight? The cold that claimed him would be the old gods. Qhorin's helm had been worn by the short homely man called Longspear Ryk, but it fit poorly on his narrow head, so he'd given that to Ygritte as well. I wonder if there is a parallel to Qhorin at Harrenhal? It would need to be associated with the Starks since the Starks gave Howland his armor. Mund (from Tormund, torr-mund) hand palm (of the hand as a measure) trust security protection guardianship protector guardian the king’s peace fine for breach of the laws of protection or guardianship of the king’s peacemoney paid by bridegroom to bride’s father bridegroom’s gift to bride <~~~ Blue rose anyone? Whoever was being held at the tower of joy was being held as a way to keep the king's peace. We know Aerys held Elia to keep the Dornish under control, so who else might he want held? Even though I'm not an RLJ believer, this one kinda points to Rhaegar paying a father a price for a bride, or for Kingsguard to keep someone protected...someone that they want to marry. Jon had to bite his tongue. He didn't want to know about Del's girl or Bodger's mother, the place by the sea that Henk the Helm came from, how Grigg yearned to visit the green men on the Isle of Faces, or the time a moose had chased Toefinger up a tree. He didn't want to hear about the boil on Big Boil's arse, how much ale Stone Thumbs could drink, or how Quort's little brother had begged him not to go with Jarl. Quort could not have been older than fourteen, though he'd already stolen himself a wife and had a child on the way. "Might be he'll be born in some castle," the boy boasted. "Born in a castle like a lord!" He was very taken with the "castles" they'd seen, by which he meant watchtowers.I wonder if all of the people named have parallel counterparts? Henk the Helm = Lyanna, Grigg = Howland. The first thing that came for the moose chasing Toefinger was Brandon dueling Littlefinger. etc, etc...
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jan 19, 2017 19:25:15 GMT
I wonder if all of the people named have parallel counterparts? Henk the Helm = Lyanna, Grigg = Howland. The first thing that came for the moose chasing Toefinger was Brandon dueling Littlefinger. etc, etc... It all may be a part of the "as above, so below" parallels and inversions of course! Another clue might be Tor EGG. Aegon was in the tower. Boom.
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