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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 6, 2017 14:34:59 GMT
This is very helpful...now the danger of the Robert /Lyanna union makes sense, and now I have motive.
More later
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 6, 2017 14:52:45 GMT
Melifeather , if you get a chance, could you repost your research passages about Durran and Eleni here? I think they are very relevant....
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 6, 2017 14:53:40 GMT
Harpy Region: Ancient Greece Type: Chimera
Harpy were the malevolent spirits of wind in ancient Greek mythology. They were chimera depicted as women with bird wings and (sometimes) bird legs. Many renditions make them to appear purposefully ugly or disfigured. Harpy were the attack dogs of the God-King Zeus, used to snatch people and objects from the Earth. Disappearances at the time were almost always attributed to a Harpy, where the wind had physically lifted people away.
Perhaps the most famous example of a tale involving the Harpy are when they were sent to plague the Thracian King Phineus for mistreating his children. Placed blind on an abundant island with food, whenever he would sit down to eat a Harpy would steal the food and leave foul smells in its place. Virgil called the chief among those creatures Celaeno (or Dark) in his Aeneid rendition of the story.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 6, 2017 23:42:30 GMT
So I know that because I laid out the similarities to Robert up there, the first inclination will be to say, "ZOMG Robert was TOTES involved and the father of Lya's baby!!!1!!1!"....very exciting I know, but don't stop reading yet. I want to go back to the Wheel of Time idea, and the notion that it is reversing: the first door on the right is the last door on the left. Let's walk this backwards. If Lyanna's story is the reverse of Dany's, what do we get? Not a perfect match, of course, primarily because Lyanna didn't live long enough, but have a gander: First, she has plans to marry someone she doesn't love, for political power. Robert. Next, while waiting on that marriage to come to pass, she meets her bad boy fuck toy, has fun with the fling and envisions living this way forever even though she knows she can't because obligations. Possibly gets pregnant with his child. Smiling Knight.Last, she gets horse-traded by her brother to a royal stranger in exchange for.... And this is where things start to get funky. And where I will leave off tonight, because I'm exhausted. But not before I give you this quote, because it's important and I will be returning to it. Viserys laughed. "They can't kill us. They can't shed blood here in the sacred city … but I can[/b]." He laid the point of his sword between Daenerys's breasts and slid it downward, over the curve of her belly. "I want what I came for," he told her. "I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you.[/font][/b] Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I'm taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I'll cut the bastard out and leave it for him." The sword point pushed through her silks and pricked at her navel. Viserys was weeping, she saw; weeping and laughing, both at the same time, this man who had once been her brother. [/font][/quote] While I do like the idea of an opposite future not taken for Lyanna, here are some supporting ideas for the Smiling Knight to be Robert in disguise. Robert was approached by Tywin through Cersei and promised that the Lannister's would come to his side and win the Iron Throne for him. He basically is pretending to be Rhaegar thus the parallel to Viserys. Robert, being the whoremonger that he is, still wanted Lyanna's virginity, but he also wanted the "crown that was promised". The "they can't kill us - and they can't shed blood in the sacred city" is intriguing. Was Lyanna hiding with the Children of the Forest? However, going off the clues in the Queenmaker chapter -0 Arianne took Myrcella to a well, but the use of the well may well (her) be symbolic of leading someone to their death. So Lyanna is led somewhere, perhaps near a well, or just simply led somewhere else to be killed in an area where it would be possible to kill her unseen. At this point Lyanna is not pregnant, but being raped by Robert and subsequent pregnancy is the opposite of Viserys threatening Dany's pregnant belly with a sword, and symbolically the rape/pregnancy leads to Lyanna's death just the same. "I want what I came for", meaning Robert wants Lyanna's maidenhead (fertilizing her eggs) and the crown, and left her with a (bloody) foal. Robert could have been weeping as he was considered by Ned, and probably by Lyanna, to be as close as a brother. Ser Barristan of House Selmy... Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former. I have been asserting for a very long time that the Kingswood Brotherhood had a copy cat group that kidnapped Lyanna. Just like the KWB kidnapped nobles - and just like Tywin's brother Kevan kidnapped nobles - there was a group of people who got away with the kidnapping and their identities were kept secret. No one told. Barristan Selmy, Sumner Crakehall, Merrett Frey, Jaime Lannister, and Robert Baratheon dressed in a copy of Rhaegar's armor - was also the Smiling Knight. This is the group that came upon Maester Walys and Lyanna. Arthur Dayne comes in later and helps Lyanna escape - much like Sandor Clegane and Arya. Robert was especially close with Jaime and Barristan. It's hard to imagine that Barristan would even be involved, but he was one of the people quickly pardoned by Robert and remained as a Kingsguard. Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead. Gerold Hightower didn't write much about Arthur's deeds, because I don't think he approved. There also seems to be some echoes with Gerold Hightower paralleling Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne. If Robert wasn't the Smiling Knight, then I'm pointing my finger next at Gerold Hightower as someone that came upon the group much like Darkstar did Arianne's group. Jaime's account of how the Smiling Knight died by Arthur's hand is hard to overcome or explain. It may be something that he's memorized and repeated as the "official story" or I've gone down a rabbit hole and ran out of bread crumbs. Does she think that I can feel that? "The Sword of the Morning slew the Smiling Knight, my lady. Ser Arthur Dayne, a better knight than me." Jaime pulled back his golden fingers and turned once more to Lady Mariya. "How far did Black Walder track this hooded woman and her men?" Here I thought Jaime said that about Gerold Hightower? One thing I want to say about Robert - he can be associated with the Smiling Knight because he's a link in the "Lyanna's Lovers" chain of Robert/TSK/... , just like we see with Drogo/Daario/Hizdahr. However, even though he shares traits with Drogo, I *think* Robert is Lyanna's future that never was. Just like Dany was planning to settle down with Hizzy and bear him sons even though she cared nothing for him personally, Lyanna would have made a life with Robert as well: "Shall I … kiss you again?" he asked when it was over. "No." On her terrace, in her bathing pool, the little fish would nibble at her legs as she soaked. Even they kissed with more fervor than Hizdahr zo Loraq. "I do not love you." Hizdahr shrugged. "That may come, in time. It has been known to happen that way." Not with us, she thought. Not whilst Daario is so close. It's him I want, not you.
This makes complete sense to me if Lyanna knows she's got a Bobby B. wedding in her future, while she's having a thing with Smiling Knight. Dany knows Hizzy doesn't really love her either, that he's more interested in his dancing girls and such just like Robert loves his brothel girls and tavern wenches.At the same time, there's this contradiction that I'm struggling with: "We are an old people. Ancestors are important to us. Wed Hizdahr zo Loraq and make a son with him, a son whose father is the harpy, whose mother is the dragon. In him the prophecies shall be fulfilled, and your enemies will melt away like snow." He shall be the stallion that mounts the world. Dany knew how it went with prophecies. They were made of words, and words were wind. There would be no son for Loraq, no heir to unite dragon and harpy. When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. Only then would her womb quicken once again …I see some supporting evidence for a Stark/Stark love match here. Lyanna is supposed to marry Robert, but she loves her brother. The Starks are an old family and their ancestors are important to them. If the father and mother are both skinchangers they will have a son that would fulfill the prophecies and melt their enemies - the white walkers. Lyanna and Brandon were centaurs and their son would be the stallion that mounts the world. Annnd a Robert Baratheon connection might be that his bastard Gendry has freakin Bull helmet? Does this mirror the White Bull saving Elia from the Brotherhood in another story that doesn't mention the Smiling Knight? Gerold is wounded by Ulmer - which brings us back to the first mention of the Smiling Knight, by Sam at the Wall. Gerold was there when Brandon and Rickard were killed. He disappears after being sent to find Rhaegar, only to reappear at the ToJ. I think the bull helmet is a nod to The Bull - Gerold Hightower. There's a connection there, I agree, and it goes back to Lyanna. My other thought was that TSK, whoever he was, was the father of Darkstar, who would obviously have a vested interest in getting their hands on Dawn. Darkstar tried to kill Myrcella. I don't recall any desire to wield Dawn, but he was trying to ruin the alliance between Dorne and the Lannister throne, and likely Arianne's attempts to take Dorne and be her father's heir. See, I see Arianne as Cersei, Doran as Tywin, and Darkstar as Gerold Hightower. Gerold would want to ruin Cersei's plot - or inversely, support it - which would go against what he told Jaime though to not judge the king.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 6, 2017 23:54:38 GMT
Melifeather , if you get a chance, could you repost your research passages about Durran and Eleni here? I think they are very relevant.... King Bob was a god-like Storm Lord, and his abduction of Lyanna replayed the Duran Godsgrief's marriage to Elenei, only he didn't marry her...he killed her...AND he killed her like the comet that split the moon. Elenei's parents were the goddess of the wind and the god of the sea. They forbade their daughter Elenei (magic moon maiden) to marry Durran. Regardless, Elenei gave her maidenhead to Durran thus giving up her divinity and took on a mortal life. For this the gods hated Durran and sent howling winds and lashing rains on their wedding night, destroying their keep, and killing all his family and guests. Enraged Duran declared war on the gods. Thus each new keep Durran built was subsequently destroyed by the gods, despite being larger and more heavily fortified. Durran's seventh keep however resisted the wrath of the gods thus earning the name of "Storm's End". According to some tales it was built with the advice of a boy who would grow up to become Bran the Builder, though others believe the children of the forest took a hand in the construction.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 7, 2017 2:04:18 GMT
King Bob was a god-like Storm Lord, and his abduction of Lyanna replayed the Duran Godsgrief's marriage to Elenei, only he didn't marry her...he killed her...AND he killed her like the comet that split the moon. Elenei's parents were the goddess of the wind and the god of the sea. They forbade their daughter Elenei (magic moon maiden) to marry Durran. Regardless, Elenei gave her maidenhead to Durran thus giving up her divinity and took on a mortal life. For this the gods hated Durran and sent howling winds and lashing rains on their wedding night, destroying their keep, and killing all his family and guests. Enraged Duran declared war on the gods. Thus each new keep Durran built was subsequently destroyed by the gods, despite being larger and more heavily fortified. Durran's seventh keep however resisted the wrath of the gods thus earning the name of "Storm's End". According to some tales it was built with the advice of a boy who would grow up to become Bran the Builder, though others believe the children of the forest took a hand in the construction. Thanks! I am going to put the other stuff to the side for the time being - was trying to sort out the continuation of the stuff I posted last night and managed to just totally tangle myself in knots, so if I add in any other angles right now my head will explode. I can revisit after brain-dumping the TSK data. One thing I will mention is: The "they can't kill us - and they can't shed blood in the sacred city" is intriguing. Was Lyanna hiding with the Children of the Forest? I think there is truth to this. My thought is that something went down near a weirwood, a place sacred to the Old Gods but not to the Seven. Given that Lyanna disappeared in the Riverlands, my first thought was the Isle of Faces...however, I would find it hard to believe that something could happen to an Old Gods follower here though, given the magical presense. BUT...there is another sacred place in the Riverlands that once was mighty but has since been destroyed, although the old powers still linger there: High Heart. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death."
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 7, 2017 2:18:14 GMT
King Bob was a god-like Storm Lord, and his abduction of Lyanna replayed the Duran Godsgrief's marriage to Elenei, only he didn't marry her...he killed her...AND he killed her like the comet that split the moon. Elenei's parents were the goddess of the wind and the god of the sea. They forbade their daughter Elenei (magic moon maiden) to marry Durran. Regardless, Elenei gave her maidenhead to Durran thus giving up her divinity and took on a mortal life. For this the gods hated Durran and sent howling winds and lashing rains on their wedding night, destroying their keep, and killing all his family and guests. Enraged Duran declared war on the gods. Thus each new keep Durran built was subsequently destroyed by the gods, despite being larger and more heavily fortified. Durran's seventh keep however resisted the wrath of the gods thus earning the name of "Storm's End". According to some tales it was built with the advice of a boy who would grow up to become Bran the Builder, though others believe the children of the forest took a hand in the construction. Thanks! I am going to put the other stuff to the side for the time being - was trying to sort out the continuation of the stuff I posted last night and managed to just totally tangle myself in knots, so if I add in any other angles right now my head will explode. I can revisit after brain-dumping the TSK data. One thing I will mention is: The "they can't kill us - and they can't shed blood in the sacred city" is intriguing. Was Lyanna hiding with the Children of the Forest? I think there is truth to this. My thought is that something went down near a weirwood, a place sacred to the Old Gods but not to the Seven. Given that Lyanna disappeared in the Riverlands, my first thought was the Isle of Faces...however, I would find it hard to believe that something could happen to an Old Gods follower here though, given the magical presense. BUT...there is another sacred place in the Riverlands that once was mighty but has since been destroyed, although the old powers still linger there: High Heart. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death."Would Robert be motivated to take a sword to Lyanna's belly like Viserys to Dany if he thought she was pregnant by someone else? I still like Robert as the Smiling Knight, but I also think I've added supporting evidence that Lyanna was impregnated by her brother Brandon...maybe even an undead Brandon (Coldhands) in a secret sacred place. Something considered an abomination, but there was no fear of repercussions because "they can't kill us - can't shed blood in this sacred place".
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 7, 2017 23:11:55 GMT
Guys, today was a parallel/ inversion lightbulb day. This is crazy. I will unload some Shazam on you later this evening.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 8, 2017 1:33:46 GMT
Okay, before I start dumping a bunch of stuff that is in no real order and probably not that coherent, I want to clarify something:
I realize the Smiling Knight idea is wackadoo and probably hard to swallow, and the Wenda/Lyanna idea is an even harder sell. However, given my realization that Dany's arc is potentially a really good echo of Lyanna's, I decided to lay them out side by side, very high level, and see what jumps out. Since a lot of people seem to like the Brandon/Lyanna Starkcest idea, I wanted to arrange the "skeleton" and see if Brandon could be plugged in as the "meat" in the places I pegged for The Smiling Knight.
I'll do an exact echo first, then an inversion. Once they're on screen, we can look and see what works and what we like, what makes sense, what is consistent with other actions and other characters. I will put in some additional revelations that *I* think are quite cool in the spots where I think they fit, but we can all play with those too.
This isn't at all conclusive and is meant to be a group effort, so fill in where you like, make suggestions, correct mistakes, etc. One thing became super-clear to me today - I desperately need a re-read of Dany's early chapters!
brb
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 8, 2017 1:56:58 GMT
see if Brandon could be plugged in as the "meat" in the places I pegged for The Smiling Knight. Remind me how the Smiling Knight is the one that impregnates Lyanna? I can see Brandon as the father or even Robert as the father or just the kidnapper, but I'm wondering why the father would also be the Smiling Knight?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 8, 2017 3:10:47 GMT
ProBoards' angry bear is making ME angry....whole reply eaten by the blue bear. Trying again: Remind me how the Smiling Knight is the one that impregnates Lyanna? I can see Brandon as the father or even Robert as the father or just the kidnapper, but I'm wondering why the father would also be the Smiling Knight? Goes back to the Marvel arc of the Cotati and the Swordsman. The Prime Cotati tree dude resurrects the recently deceased Swordman so the tree spirit can use him as the means to do the physical deed with Mantis and impregnate her with the Celestial Messiah. I had this in mind for Lyanna and the/a Great Weirwood when we were talking about hybrid babies and her child possibly having a non-human father. Weasel Pie like the OtherDaddy, I like TreeDaddy. lol This actually brings me to a quote that I found but wasn't sure where to put: A Dance with Dragons - Bran III Bran's throat was very dry. He swallowed. "Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He's not dead, he's not, I saw him, he's back at Winterfell, he's still alive." "No," said Leaf. "He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death."
I have always loved this passage and have wondered from the start about its significance. Did someone try before? Is this why Leaf gives the warning? Is it even possible? What happens if they succeed? Leaf warns Bran not to go there, but we HAVE seen this succeed already - Thoros manages to resurrect Beric a whopping 6 times, and then Beric pays it forward by giving lucky #7 to Catelyn. I find it interesting that this happens in the Riverlands, and have seen it speculated that perhaps R'hllor wasn't the god responsible for Thoros' sudden skills - there may have been another old power at work instead. Lyanna also went missing in the Riverlands - and as yet, no one knows what she was doing there. Was Lyanna perhaps on her own quest to call someone back from death, this time giving credit to the proper god? Or, could she have been lured to her fate with the temptation of seeing a loved one again, a loved one she thought dead? After Leaf's warning, we get this from Bran: "I saw him." Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. "He was cleaning Ice." "You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."
Bran misses his father; the vision -or memory- seems very real to him. Had Leaf not been there to intervene, would he have reached out? How? If Bran had acted on his first impulse without Leaf there to guide him, would he have taken action through the weirwood, changing events through manipulation of time? Or physically returned to home, to Winterfell, filled with hope and joy at the thought of seeing his father alive again, finding only death waiting for him instead? It's a good question, and we see this common motif of pain, loss, and desperation play out elsewhere too. In Dany's arc, we see it lead to blood magic in an attempt to pull Drogo back from death's clutches. Since Dany and Lyanna's arcs align so well, now I'm wondering if we'll see this with Lyanna as well. But, only death can pay for life. That begs the question: whose death? and whose life?
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 8, 2017 10:23:06 GMT
So if Lyanna goes missing, like Arya...she wasn't necessarily kidnapped...but maybe just hanging out with the Kingswood Brotherhood. Maybe Littlefinger started the kidnapping rumor in order to get Brandon riled up and killed? Lyanna hears about Brandon and Rickard and begins to make her way home, again like Arya who was looking for her mother. Arya first heads for the Eyrie, then Riverrun, then ends up at Saltpans before Braavos. All the while trying to reconnect to her family.
Meanwhile Ned's bones are on the road to Winterfell. Catelyn crosses paths with the bones sometime during her parley with Renly at Bitterbridge or when they ride together to Storm's End, right? Or was this just on the show?
Later on Davos smuggles Melisandre into Storm's End to birth her shadow baby. Recall that Duran built a castle that could withstand angry gods. I also cannot help but recall that after his successful battles at Summerhall, Robert Baratheon returned to Storms End with captives. Was the secret place where they could not be killed Storm's End? Was Lyanna's magic baby born at Storm's End?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 8, 2017 13:16:29 GMT
Lyanna hears about Brandon and Rickard and begins to make her way home, again like Arya who was looking for her mother. Arya first heads for the Eyrie, then Riverrun, then ends up at Saltpans before Braavos. All the while trying to reconnect to her family. Interesting thought! Will have to play with that a bit. Totally fits the echo. Meanwhile Ned's bones are on the road to Winterfell. Catelyn crosses paths with the bones sometime during her parley with Renly at Bitterbridge or when they ride together to Storm's End, right? Or was this just on the show? Cat encounters the bones in the books - but then they disappear en route to Winterfell. This ties into something I was thinking last night, again at 11pm - Weasel Pie has brought up the mama direwolf and "born with the dead". Otherbaby, etc. Going back to what I said upthread about calling one back from death via the trees...what if LYANNA was the one called back from death? What if she became the revenant? Like, literally, Coldhanded...palms dead and black. Called back from the dead to birth the special magic baby (this is a story with dragons, ice zombies, and tardis trees..I don't wanna hear that this isn't possible. lol) I mean, think about it - there is so much indirect textual reference to Lyanna being in the Riverlands, in the North, all over...but by all accounts she died in Dorne. What if that was the SECOND death? The secret in the tower that no one could know about, that led Ned to tear down the tower and bury the bones of the dead under cairns instead of returning them to the North? I dunno, I'm trying to reconcile the black hands of a sentient wight with a fever that killed her. Ned may be conflating death events - since the dream isn't literal, but still. Hrm. Will post more on this later.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 8, 2017 13:34:40 GMT
Also, keep in mind GRRM's love for Lady Stoneheart and how upset he was that she was cut from the show. And what is Lady Stoneheart's ultimate purpose? To get revenge on those who killed her family.
Vengeful revenants be important, people.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 8, 2017 13:49:14 GMT
Speaking of pools...
Gonna roll this into what I was working on yesterday.
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