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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 9, 2017 15:58:03 GMT
Doing a quick re-read of Dany for another topic, and this jumped out right away in her first chapter: The bolded is mega-interesting, because they are simultaneously similar and opposite. Casterly Rock & Eyrie - 1) Both are representatives of the oldest Andal houses. 2) Both castles lie near the coasts on the edges of Westeros - one controls the west, one controls the east. 3) What lies beneath, what floats above. CR has the mines that go far below the surface, while the Eyrie has the towers that jut into the clouds. And, IMO, 4) both houses are in current day ruled by clever tactician lords, silently scheming from the behind the scenes in quests for ever-expanding power. Highgarden & Vale of Arryn - 1) both areas of rich and fertile soil that produces bountiful crops. 2) both areas were once home to First Men kings but were subjugated by the Andals; both regions rejected the Old Gods of the First Men and adopted the Faith of the Seven. 3) Highgarden sits atop a large hill; the Vale lies in a valley floor. Dorne & Isle of Faces - WTF is this pairing? Was this deliberate, trying to alert the reader to a connection right off the bat? The other five areas mentioned are actual "kingdoms" of Westeros, and then there's the Isle of Faces? Why not "the Riverlands", or "the Neck", or "the North"? And finally, why the heck is the Isle of Faces associated with Dorne?!?!?
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 9, 2017 16:48:30 GMT
Doing a quick re-read of Dany for another topic, and this jumped out right away in her first chapter: The bolded is mega-interesting, because they are simultaneously similar and opposite. Casterly Rock & Eyrie - 1) Both are representatives of the oldest Andal houses. 2) Both castles lie near the coasts on the edges of Westeros - one controls the west, one controls the east. 3) What lies beneath, what floats above. CR has the mines that go far below the surface, while the Eyrie has the towers that jut into the clouds. And, IMO, 4) both houses are in current day ruled by clever tactician lords, silently scheming from the behind the scenes in quests for ever-expanding power. Highgarden & Vale of Arryn - 1) both areas of rich and fertile soil that produces bountiful crops. 2) both areas were once home to First Men kings but were subjugated by the Andals; both regions rejected the Old Gods of the First Men and adopted the Faith of the Seven. 3) Highgarden sits atop a large hill; the Vale lies in a valley floor. Dorne & Isle of Faces - WTF is this pairing? Was this deliberate, trying to alert the reader to a connection right off the bat? The other five areas mentioned are actual "kingdoms" of Westeros, and then there's the Isle of Faces? Why not "the Riverlands", or "the Neck", or "the North"? And finally, why the heck is the Isle of Faces associated with Dorne?!?!? Because it's an inversion of North and South. Everything listed is a mirrored reflection like you've already noted between east and west, but we'd be remiss to forget that the inversions also apply north and south. There does seem to be some type of connection if you think about Alleras aka "Sphinx" who is Sarella Sand in disguise as a young boy. She is exceptionally skilled with a bow made of a rare costly wood known as goldenheart. As Alleras, "he" has already earned three links in "his" maester chain in six months at the Citadel - a notable feat - but "he" has also associated "himself" with Archmaester Marwyn.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 9, 2017 16:55:23 GMT
But the Isle of Faces isn't in the north...it's in the riverlands.
Unless you're saying that the IoF is a "training facility" the same way the Citadel is? Inversion: one magic, one anti-magic? And the Citadel is in the Reach, not Dorne. Interesting.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 9, 2017 17:13:00 GMT
But the Isle of Faces isn't in the north...it's in the riverlands. Unless you're saying that the IoF is a "training facility" the same way the Citadel is? Inversion: one magic, one anti-magic? And the Citadel is in the Reach, not Dorne. Interesting. Nope. Just scatterbrained I guess, because I was thinking "faces" as in House of Black and White faces in Braavos.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 9, 2017 17:14:36 GMT
You've got me thinking though. I've always suspected Ned's fever dream is one sent by the Third Eye Crow. Its repetitive like the 3EC wants Ned to remember certain events in a certain, specific way. Like Lyanna was found at the tower of joy, when we suspect that she wasn't. Maybe Howland returned to the Isle of Faces and that is the epicenter for the hijacking?
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Post by min on Sept 29, 2017 14:18:26 GMT
You've got me thinking though. I've always suspected Ned's fever dream is one sent by the Third Eye Crow. Its repetitive like the 3EC wants Ned to remember certain events in a certain, specific way. Like Lyanna was found at the tower of joy, when we suspect that she wasn't. Maybe Howland returned to the Isle of Faces and that is the epicenter for the hijacking? Dorne & Isle of Faces - WTF is this pairing? Was this deliberate, trying to alert the reader to a connection right off the bat? The other five areas mentioned are actual "kingdoms" of Westeros, and then there's the Isle of Faces? Why not "the Riverlands", or "the Neck", or "the North"? And finally, why the heck is the Isle of Faces associated with Dorne?!?!? The green men and Oberon/Oberyn (Ned: I'd rather trust a child to a pit viper than Tywin Lannister.) spiritofthegreenman.co.uk/green-man-legend-mythology/Dorne has never been ruled by the Targaryens and the God's Eye is ruled by the green men or the old gods. Why was Howland Reed so interested in Ashara Dayne at the Tourney of Harrenhal? Lyanna and Ned are important to the old gods. Lyanna must survive to birth Jon and Ned must survive to birth Bran, Arya and foster Jon. The more I think about it; the more likely it seems to me that Lyanna was hidden on the God's Eye especially since we are given the reference to black hands (Coldhands = green man). Although I still doubt there was a kidnapping. I think it more likely that Lyanna went back to the Eyrie with Ned and Robert after the tourney and when Brandon and Rickard ended up at KL; she was secretly moved to safety with Ned's knowledge and that he and Howland were the only two who knew where she was located. The God's Eye has to come into the story somewhere (WoW) and I think it will be Meera who tells Bran the sad tale she is saving for another time. I think it likely that Lyanna was pregnant by Robert. I doubt that she is rebellious like Arya and romantic like Sansa when it fits the RLJ narrative. To me it's more likely that she was pragmatic and dutiful and was prepared to marry Robert like all other women in the story. Robert was handsome and charismatic enough and loved her. Lyanna herself says "love is sweet" and that's what she feels for Robert. Her doubts about his fidelity would be normal but not a reason to forgo their union. The notion that Robert can only produce bastards with blue-eyes and black hair finds exception with both Bella and Barra who both have black hair but lack blue eyes. There are only 3 of 16 bastards who are confirmed to have that hair/eye combo. Seven bastards are known and Varys knows of one other who is not named or revealed. Can we assume that the God's Eye is a magical place? Why does nobody go there except for Howland? It seems to be warded against curiosity of trespassers. For Ned to keep silent about it even upon Robert's death seems like a powerful oath is in play. I'm reminded of the oath of silence that Sam makes about Bran. I'd go so far as to say that Jon Arryn was probably complicit in Lyanna's pregnancy. Given his own difficulties, he was pleased to have Lysa given her proven ability to become pregnant. He might also want the same guarantee for Robert if he means to install him on the Iron Throne. Ned would be most concerned about Lyanna's safety after the capture and murder of her brother, father and bridle party. He may even have decided to move her to safety on the pretext of Lyanna travelling to Riverrun. When she doesn't arrive at her destination and Robert learns that Brandon is taken captive and charged with treason AND that Rhaegar is missing; it's Robert himself who jumps to the conclusion that Lyanna has been kidnapped. That becomes the official version of her disappearance and all the reason Robert needs to go to war. It's when Ned calls his banners that he returns to the God's Eye (or Greywater Watch) and finds Lyanna (with Howland and others). He then goes to Winterfell with Jon/Wylla where only Benjen and a few family retainers are present. It may be that poor Maester Flowers was with Rickard's party after all. On a recent re-read of GoT, I noticed something odd: There is an odd discrepancy in this chapter and the previous Catelyn Chapter. In this chapter, Ned recalls that the last time he saw Robert was 9 years previous during the Greyjoy Rebellion. In the previous Catelyn chapter, he says it's been awhile since he has seen Robert's children. So Ned must be thinking of Joffrey as the youngest the last time he saw him nine years previous. We know Mya is older and Catelyn warns Ned to guard his tongue. So even before their arrival, there is an undertone of anxiety concerning Robert's bastards. This could also be a slip on Ned's part concerning Jon. Joffrey is officially Robert's first born; but Ned thinks of him as the youngest of Robert's children. Tommen, whom Ned confuses with Joffrey, has both an older sister and an older brother. Catelyn recognizes that Ned is confusing the two and corrects him. She also recognizes that Ned is thinking of Robert's bastards and warns him to guard his tongue. Ned is in fact very guarded in his conversation with Robert in the crypts. He is a bit suspicious of Robert's motives and not just because he suspects Robert will ask him to go south. "Lyanna was ... fond of flowers." In speaking of the place where she died; Ned remembers Howland and the rose in Lyanna's hand. He guards his tongue on the details with Robert. "Lyanna was fond of Howland." Ned does lie to Robert about Lyanna and lets him believe that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her; that she died in some foreign land. But Robert is not entirely sure that Ned's bastard is his bastard. He fishes for information once they are on the road and alone. Robert's know Ned like a brother and he finds it hard to believe that any woman would cause Ned to lose his honor. Ned becomes very defensive about his Wylla cover story, although he may have dishonored himself for the purpose of hiding the truth from Robert. Ned confesses in his own mind on Robert's deathbed; that he lied, hid the truth and he hopes that Lyanna will tell him the truth of it when Robert sees her in the night lands. Robert himself may have put Jon Arryn up to the task of finding his bastards. If Robert had been intimate with Lyanna, he would anticipate a child and he may have wanted to see Jon for himself. Especially since Jon Arryn's last words 'the seed is strong' would be known to Robert. The first thing Robert does is re-acquaint himself with Lyanna's appearance.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 29, 2017 17:51:47 GMT
So Ned must be thinking of Joffrey as the youngest the last time he saw him nine years previous. We know Mya is older and Catelyn warns Ned to guard his tongue. So even before their arrival, there is an undertone of anxiety concerning Robert's bastards. This could also be a slip on Ned's part concerning Jon. Joffrey is officially Robert's first born; but Ned thinks of him as the youngest of Robert's children. Tommen, whom Ned confuses with Joffrey, has both an older sister and an older brother. You are confusing me here...Tommen is the youngest of the three as Myrcella is the second born and that is why Arianne supports her as Queen over King Tommen.
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Post by min on Sept 29, 2017 18:21:24 GMT
So Ned must be thinking of Joffrey as the youngest the last time he saw him nine years previous. We know Mya is older and Catelyn warns Ned to guard his tongue. So even before their arrival, there is an undertone of anxiety concerning Robert's bastards. This could also be a slip on Ned's part concerning Jon. Joffrey is officially Robert's first born; but Ned thinks of him as the youngest of Robert's children. Tommen, whom Ned confuses with Joffrey, has both an older sister and an older brother. You are confusing me here...Tommen is the youngest of the three as Myrcella is the second born and that is why Arianne supports her as Queen over King Tommen. When Ned learns that Robert is coming to winterfell; he tells Catelyn that he would like to see the children again. He thinks the youngest was five the last time he saw Robert. But how can that be if the last time he saw Robert was during the Greyjoy rebellion which was 9 years previous. So he is really thinking about Joffrey. Joffrey is the youngest of Robert's children, because Ned is aware that Robert has older bastards. Catelyn realizes that Ned is screwing up and she has also heard the rumors that Robert has had a dozen bastards. So she corrects him by saying the youngest is Tommen who is seven. And she tells him to guard his tongue because Cersei won't like it if he slips up like that in front of her. It's not something you would notice on a first read before knowing that Robert has bastards. But Ned knows it and so does Catelyn. It's also not concidence that Ned is confusing Joffrey with Tommen who has both an older sister and brother. Nine years ago, Joffrey's older siblings would be Jon and Mya. Ned doesn't yet know that Joffrey isn't Robert's and Joffrey is the only child of 'Robert's' that Ned has ever seen. So he thinks of him as Robert's youngest. Of course, Joffrey should be the oldest and there should no other children. So that's a huge screw-up on Ned's part should he say something like that in front of Cersei..
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 29, 2017 20:31:17 GMT
I'm not so sure about this.... Joffrey would have been 3 or even closer to 4 during the Greyjoy Rebellion, and is 12 in 298 when Ned makes this comment about him being "5 by now". I'm horrible with birthdays and ages and can totally get being confused and off by a year or two, but 7?
The Greyjoy Rebellion began in 289, but iirc we don't know how long it lasted or when during the year it occurred. However, both Myrcella and Tommen - who are a year apart-are born sometime shortly after it. There were really no known dates to speak of in the story when AGOT was published; all we were getting with this book were some vague references to past events without much to place it in time. IMO this is one of those early "put away the stopwatch" moments-- a continuity error that was made worse by details in subsequent books.
Catelyn's comment for Ned to guard his tongue may simply be in reference to him referring to her as " the Lannister woman" instead of by her title of Queen--the insult to her pride.
jm2c
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Post by min on Sept 29, 2017 21:45:37 GMT
I'm not so sure about this.... Joffrey would have been 3 or even closer to 4 during the Greyjoy Rebellion, and is 12 in 298 when Ned makes this comment about him being "5 by now". I'm horrible with birthdays and ages and can totally get being confused and off by a year or two, but 7? The Greyjoy Rebellion began in 289, but iirc we don't know how long it lasted or when during the year it occurred. However, both Myrcella and Tommen - who are a year apart-are born sometime shortly after it. There were really no known dates to speak of in the story when AGOT was published; all we were getting with this book were some vague references to past events without much to place it in time. IMO this is one of those early "put away the stopwatch" moments-- a continuity error that was made worse by details in subsequent books. Catelyn's comment for Ned to guard his tongue may simply be in reference to him referring to her as " the Lannister woman" instead of by her title of Queen--the insult to her pride. jm2c It's really not about Tommen. Ned states that he last saw Robert 9 years previous. But he tells Cat that he's looking forward to seeing Robert's youngest and thinks he was 5 at the time he last saw Robert. Is Joffrey 14 when they come to Winterfell or thereabouts. The only child that Ned has seen would be Joffrey. But he thinks of him as Robert's youngest. That implies that on some level there are children who are older than Joffrey. Bastards in other words. Myra for one and Jon for another if you go with Robert as father. Catelyn may know about Myra but also reveals later that she has heard rumors that the King has had a dozen bastards. She may also know about the Florent twins who are killed. Likely from Lysa. So Cat recognizes that Ned is slipping up by referring to children he saw 9 years ago and naming Joffrey the youngest. She corrects him by reminding him that the youngest now is Tommen. She tells him to guard his tongue. Mentioning bastards or even implying that bastards exist would be damaging. Something that Catelyn understands only too well considering her own feelings about Jon.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 29, 2017 23:08:38 GMT
Lost my whole post. :annoyed
I just don't think the ages work. If Ned is confusing any of Robert's by-blows with Joffrey i think in this instance it would be Edric Storm...another one that was acknowledged by him, for one, and that would have been 1-2 yo / still on the breast during the Greyjoy Rebellion. This is also the kid that Robert wanted to bring to KL after his birth but Cersei flipped out.
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Post by min on Sept 30, 2017 0:09:28 GMT
Lost my whole post. :annoyed I just don't think the ages work. If Ned is confusing any of Robert's by-blows with Joffrey i think in this instance it would be Edric Storm...another one that was acknowledged by him, for one, and that would have been 1-2 yo / still on the breast during the Greyjoy Rebellion. This is also the kid that Robert wanted to bring to KL after his birth but Cersei flipped out. Current year - Jon Arryn - d 298 Nine years previous - 289 Mya Stone - b 279/280 - 9 or 10 Jon Snow - b 282/283 - 7 or 8 (assuming Jon is older than we are told) Joffrey - b 286 - 3 years old Edric Storm - b 287 - 2 years old Ned doesn't seem to know about Edric Storm. It doesn't come up in a search for either Ned or Catelyn. He names the bastards he knows and assumes there are others. Myrcella and Tommen are not yet born at the time Ned refers to as seeing Robert. He may be getting the ages wrong but Joffrey is the youngest and Ned has no reason to think he isn't Robert's at this point.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 30, 2017 0:42:45 GMT
Ned doesn't seem to know about Edric Storm. I think everybody knows about Edric Storm. Robert defiled Stannis' own wedding bed with hundreds of guests present, and 9 moons later Delena Florent has a baby that everyone knows is his. And Robert sent Edric to live at Storm's End, enjoy highborn castle life, be educated at maesters' knees, etc. He is a recognized bastard, although never legitimized while Robert was king; I'm dubious that Ned WOULDN'T know about the highborn bastard of his best friend that was between 1 and 2yo at the time of the Greyjoy Rebellion and living at Robert's own ancestral seat with Robert's own brother. Speaking of brothers, though... That implies that on some level there are children who are older than Joffrey. Bastards in other words. Myra for one and Jon for another if you go with Robert as father. Catelyn may know about Myra but also reveals later that she has heard rumors that the King has had a dozen bastards. We don't know the full list of Robert's illegitimate get, but my crackpot is and will remain that the OLDEST and most SECRET one is named Renly.
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Post by min on Sept 30, 2017 1:23:50 GMT
Ned doesn't seem to know about Edric Storm. I think everybody knows about Edric Storm. Robert defiled Stannis' own wedding bed with hundreds of guests present, and 9 moons later Delena Florent has a baby that everyone knows is his. And Robert sent Edric to live at Storm's End, enjoy highborn castle life, be educated at maesters' knees, etc. He is a recognized bastard, although never legitimized while Robert was king; I'm dubious that Ned WOULDN'T know about the highborn bastard of his best friend that was between 1 and 2yo at the time of the Greyjoy Rebellion and living at Robert's own ancestral seat with Robert's own brother. Speaking of brothers, though... That implies that on some level there are children who are older than Joffrey. Bastards in other words. Myra for one and Jon for another if you go with Robert as father. Catelyn may know about Myra but also reveals later that she has heard rumors that the King has had a dozen bastards. We don't know the full list of Robert's illegitimate get, but my crackpot is and will remain that the OLDEST and most SECRET one is named Renly. Yes, I have to agree with that then. Although I'm pretty sure that Edric wouldn't have been sucking on Cersei's teat the last time Ned saw him. Although I'm not so sure about Joffrey.
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