|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 26, 2017 14:03:35 GMT
Another quick thought on Mance/Abel/Bael:
If we go with the idea that the child of the Stark maiden is the Magical Special Baby™, fathered by the Faustian and/or Mephistophelean character of the tale, it seems to me that Mance knows about it. Obviously he knows the wildling version of the Bael story, and its possible that he has the added bonus of knowing the REAL history courtesy of his time in the Night's Watch.
So on the WoT notion, Mance is now playing the role of Joramun - the King Beyond the Wall who (he hopes) will get his mitts on the Horn of Winter. Since Mance was actively looking for the Horn in the far north, then it stands to reason that he knows what's coming. And how would he know this, you ask? Because he knows the secret of the Stark maiden's child.
Mance has been traveling to Winterfell to get some good looks at Jon Snow. Everyone thinks that he's replaying the Bael role here, the crow trickster sneaking into Winterfell, but *I* think that the faux bard is there for a different reason: to confirm the existence of Starkcest and/or a pregnancy of that union. Mance knows what the kneelers have forgotten, in other words - that a Stark (a Brandon) was responsible for the 'plague of ice', maybe, and that only the child of that same Stark can bring him down?
Not worded very well, but you get my drift - kindof Eowyn/Witch King stuff.
Now to throw in Mance's own 'royal' baby and Craster/Gilly/Monster...
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 26, 2017 14:18:11 GMT
Mance has been traveling to Winterfell to get some good looks at Jon Snow. Everyone thinks that he's replaying the Bael role here, the crow trickster sneaking into Winterfell, but *I* think that the faux bard is there for a different reason: to confirm the existence of Starkcest and/or a pregnancy of that union. Mance knows what the kneelers have forgotten, in other words - that a Stark (a Brandon) was responsible for the 'plague of ice', maybe, and that only the child of that same Stark can bring him down? Interjecting that "Abel" went to Winterfell to free "Arya" from her captors, neither being who they seems to be. that a Stark (a Brandon) was responsible for the 'plague of ice', maybe, and that only the child of that same Stark can bring him down? 100%! Really in awe of what this thread is bringing together.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 26, 2017 14:37:44 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 26, 2017 16:17:27 GMT
HOLY CRAP YOU GUAISE
Mance IS Rhaegar...or at least his story is. And Jon is Ned.
More to follow.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Sept 26, 2017 16:40:56 GMT
Oh that old theory again! Or do you mean he's reprising whatever Rhaegar did?
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 26, 2017 16:40:58 GMT
Rhaegar had been with Lyanna at Winterfell, I'm sure of it, but I don't think it was to impregnate her, that was someone else's job. 100% agree that Rhaegar went north of the Wall, and I believe he knew about the secret passages from the crypts to beyond the wall. I even considered him as an NK figure with an "other"-wordly lover there. Could tie in with the whole Val/Dalla idea (that they're "otherwordly" straight out of Valhalla), I've always thought this pointed at Rhaegar. Of course we have the added benefit of Rhaegar being completed helmed and armored at the Trident, and burned right away. Thinking out loud because of the JRRT themes I've been peeling back, but very excited to hear your ideas here. Rattleshirt was glamoured so everyone would think he was Mance, and that Mance had been killed. Instead Mance transforms into Abel as his new alias. I wonder who they set up as Rhaegar on the Trident? Wait what... the second son? Oh wait ok. Switching the prince for the monster, unknowingly? Sends away the prince (Steelsong/Aegon/Sam - heh) and keeps the monster (Monster/Jon) close.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 26, 2017 17:17:54 GMT
Jon is Ned pretty much all the way through. Whole thing is one big echo.
Writing up something now that I will post tonight from desktop. Patience, grasshoppers. Lol
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Sept 26, 2017 17:20:54 GMT
Anybody notice that this green grasshopper is a cricket? Or that the cricket is green?
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 27, 2017 1:26:55 GMT
Many disjointed thoughts to spit out....hard to put together comprehensive theories at work in an open office where I can't use the internet. Will post shortly.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 27, 2017 4:26:12 GMT
Ok, so...after my Mance/Bael post this morning, I began laying out some thoughts about baby Monster and baby Aemon Battleborn - as that progressed, I realized there are far more echoes in Mance's story than we realized. The following is basically the Jon/Mance plot (Reader's Digest version)
Much of this is nothing new, but some of it may be surprising when you see it put together. What I'm noticing is that we have echoes/inversions/parallels all over the place here, but they are NOT LINEAR. The order of operation is jumping around, so think of it as viewing this as a tree with time as a river, all rolling and flowing together.
Shorthand: Mance = King beyond the Wall; echo of Rhaegar, the would-be King Jon = Future Stark of Winterfell; echo of Ned, with some Brandon peppered in as the Stark of Winterfell that Wasn't Sam = Loyal Friend; echo of Howland Reed Gilly = Teenaged Wild Girl; echoing Lyanna? I think?
The Future Stark of Winterfell meets the King and his pregnant „Queen“ close to the time she is due to give birth. The FSoW forges a fake allegiance with the „king“ after killing his own „brother“ for the sake of the realm. This brother (order, not fraternal) voluntarily sacrificed his own life so the FSoW could find out what the KBtW was up to. -- inverse parallel to Ned and Brandon, possibly a nod to an alliance with Rhaegar/Elia
Before actually meeting the KBtW, FSoW falls for a wildling girl, a redhead kissed by fire, that openly seduces him. When he later meets the King, the FSoW is pretending to be in a relationship with her as part of his cover, but later that pretending becomes real – they sleep together and he falls in love. He loves her but will not make her his wife because he has already sworn vows to another (the NW). Inverse: Ned meets Ashara Dayne as an inroad to Rhaegar (plan set up by brother Brandon, who can't do the deed himself because he has sworn a vow to redhead Catelyn Tully). Ned and Ashara are supposed to be a thing, not sure who seduces who in this instance.
Continuing the undercover mission, the FSoW agrees to accompany the King’s men on a special mission to breach the Wall and take his forces south to invade. FSoW goes along with the first part of the plan – getting south of the Wall undetected, along with his now-lover (who almost dies in the attempt) - but then can’t follow through with the rest. The tipping point is when the FSoW is ordred to kill an innocent man in order to prove his loyalty. He refuses, his lover kills the man herself, and the FSoW escapes as his lover turns on him and tries to kill him too. - I think this is the Fisherman's Daughter event. So if Jon = Ned, supposed to kill who? maester Walys? the maester of Dragonstone? The captain of the boat? Either way, Ned bails, Ashara turns on him. Later, his lover-turned-enemy dies after seeing him again one last time, paralleling Ygritte.
The FSoW returns to his „home“ and marshalls men to prepare for the pending invasion from the King’s forces. He learns that the old LC of the NW - an ally and the one who believed in the coming Winter - has been killed, betrayed by his own men. - There is something with LC Qorgyle and Jeor Mormont here, but not sure what - a Northern ally joins the Watch?
After being elected LC, the FSoW goes to treat with the King, but this is really a disguised assassination attempt. FsoW hesitates to act, and surprise! The forces of a Baratheon trying to become NewKing show up and come to the "aid" of the FSoW. - This may be the Battle of the Bells: that mysterious battle that Ned supposedly won for his best bud Robert, but no one knows exactly what he did or how he changed the tide. Jon Connington is involved here as well; I wonder if we're seeing an inversion in which the parley trap was set for the Baratheon and the FSoW came to HIS aid...after hesitating on it. This could also be the Trident, which actually fits better with all the babies really. Haven't worked this all out yet.
Bonus: before being attacked by the Baratheon army, the King confesses to the FSoW that he didn’t want to come south to attack, he just wanted to get his people away from the advancing Others. Inversion: Rhaegar wanted to convince his people to fight the advancing Others, needed to bring them north so they could see. Ties in with Rhaegar's prophecy, Dany's Trident vision, the show's stupid wight hunt.
During the battle between the Baratheon/FSoW vs "King", the KBtW’s son is born in the midst of the fighting, because babies always have THE WORST timing, and his „Queen“ has died in childbirth. Supposedly. (I have my doubts on Dalla’s demise, personally.) Dalla’s „sister“ Val is fine and well, however, and assumes care of the King's son. (FWIW, I also don’t believe for a second that Val is Dalla’s blood sister – IMO they are both members of some kind of sororal order. ) However, this could also be a twist on an iversion to Ashara and Arthur Dayne, with Arthur serving in the Val role?) - I don't have this straight in my mind yet, am casting the line for discussion. I think here there’s some conflation – I think this may be Ashara’s baby - the king’s child – the stillbirth that Barry mentions (the inverse to Dalla, the mother, being the one that dies) that happened while the child’s father (Rhaegar) was fighting in battle with a Baratheon.
As luck would have it though, the Loyal Friend of the FSoW has just so happened to have gotten his hands on a teenage wild girl and her incest baby, and has had these two in his care for a bit back at "home". Loyal Friend has „saved“ the girl and prevented her incest baby from being given over to the gods as ‚tribute‘ by her father. - You guys know I am totes down with Howlin' Howland as a secret bad guy with ulterior Green Men motives, right? So the inverse would be that Howland has Lyanna/her child with intent of doing something with the Magical Special Baby™? This may not be the case, of course.
Incest baby is a bit older than the son of the King, but close enough to pass muster. Teenage Wild Girl is able to nurse the royal baby as well as her own. - Wylla Wetnurse story here, also the Merry Midwife from the Davos Fisherman's Daughter chapter
Loyal Friend parallel – Sam Tarly/Howland Reed. Both viewed as weak, craven, poor fighters, looked down upon by many. In fact are incredibly brave, fiercely loyal, and have a strong sense of justice /honor that dovetails well with the Future Stark in Winterfell - although Ned showed that he wasn't above doing some less than honorable stuff on more than a few occasions, what does this say about Howland?
FSoW is concerned that a shadowbinder is going to use the King's son as sacrifice to Red Ralloo in order to increase the power of the Baratheon king and ensure his victory over his enemies. The shadowbinder has already suggested this as an option for other royal kids – we see this parallel echo in reverse, what with Edric Storm being secreted away from Dragonstone under cover of darkness by Davos and "four loyal men" being the current-day version of Dany and Willem Darry's midnight flight from Dragonstone. Same setup, just out of order.
FSoW makes a hard decision – he swaps babies. He tells the wildling girl to go south with the ‚royal‘ baby and Loyal Friend, and gives the incest baby to the ‚sister‘ of the king’s wife to care for in the north. Inverse: This will take some playing around. We've got Ashara to work with, and also Arthur. Wondering if we are getting some Jeor Mormont echoes in Sam here due to the Night's Watch connection - I KNOW that the Old Bear had a role in this, I just know it. While this is transpiring, the Baratheon NewKing and his queen want the King executed for his treason – they choose to burn him with everyone watching. Echo: After the Trident, Rhaegar was quietly and efficiently cremated per SSM, right?, nothing to see here, right? Move along, George says....
Plot twist: the King being burned isn’t really the king, it’s patsy glamoured by the shadowbinder. The real king is still out there, being used by the shadowbinder to accomplish her own purposes for her Baratheon NewKing. One of these purposes is to rescue the wild wolf daughter of Winterfell (that everyone believed to be dead) from her forced marriage to Ramsay Snowlton Revenant Lyanna? Grey girl on a dying horse = Dying girl on a grey horse, like the grey mare Loras rode in the Tourney of the Hand/KotLT parallel?
The glamoured King still thinks that the FSoW has his son when he agrees to assist the shadowbinder in her plan. He does not know that the babies have been switched. - OMG, so many places to take this...
The King takes 6 spearwives with him on the rescue mission, a party of 7. They journey to Winterfell for a huge wedding feast and celebration before a massive blizzard rolls in. --This is the Tourney of Harrenhal. Big party, big plot.
After the wedding, the plan unfolds to get the „bride“ out of the castle. Inverse to Rhaegar hitting the road for the Riverlands on his "quest" with his merry band as the False Spring ends.
Def0 need to work Theon into this. Who would be his parallel? Littlefinger?
Plan to break out the daughter of Winterfell goes awry. Supposedly the KBtW is captured and his 6 companions killed. This info is conveyed via the Pink Letter. – the equivalent being the letter sent by Littlefinger to Cat after Brandon's death? The intent of the letter is to taunt the FSofW into attacking. This stinks of Tywin Lannister to me, actually.
The letter reveals that Mance is being held in a cage outside – like an animal – and he has to wear the skins of his companions for protection against the elements. Like, literally, forced to wear the skins of his friends to survive in captitvity. If we apply the inverse – Rhaegar and his 6 merry men are the ones doing the capturing of Lyanna, "falling upon" her in the Riverlands, I’m willing to bet at least ten internet dollars that the wearing of the skins is meta-freaking-phorical and is totes a nod to skinchanging.
Sorry guys, I know that was all over the map, but I have to end for tonight - exhausted. Lots to work with here though.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 27, 2017 4:45:19 GMT
Read through once, lots of awesome to absorb - too tired to respond coherently right now
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 27, 2017 11:56:02 GMT
Speaking of not being coherent...man, am I a moron. I'm over here blathering about Jeor Mormont and the NW being involved in the parallel and I totally forget about the subject of my dang post.
Mance had a hand in it...he had to. At very least, he knows what happened-- this is how he knows that Jon is the special kid. Herp, derp.
Also, if we like the BotB at Stoney Sept for one of the echoes, really need to take a closer look at the Peach, where Bob supposedly fathered Bella. I have said before, Lyanna had soooo much imagery re: brothels and prostitution in her story and I can't put it together. It is driving me crazy.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 27, 2017 12:12:23 GMT
One more thought: re the parallel with Mance and the fake Arya, the fake Arya is set to marry Ramsay Snowlton, the outwardly crazy and sadistic half of the father/son psycho team I discussed in the other thread.
Applied to the Rebellion players, this puts Lyanna (fake or real) as being given to AERYS as a plaything....because Ramsay's "son" inversion is the "dad". Ka-ching!
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 27, 2017 15:51:47 GMT
Wow, so much to juggle here, it's awesome! A few thoughts - of course lol Before actually meeting the KBtW, FSoW falls for a wildling girl, a redhead kissed by fire, that openly seduces him. When he later meets the King, the FSoW is pretending to be in a relationship with her as part of his cover, but later that pretending becomes real – they sleep together and he falls in love. He loves her but will not make her his wife because he has already sworn vows to another (the NW). Inverse: Ned meets Ashara Dayne as an inroad to Rhaegar (plan set up by brother Brandon, who can't do the deed himself because he has sworn a vow to redhead Catelyn Tully). Ned and Ashara are supposed to be a thing, not sure who seduces who in this instance.I'm getting a Robb/Jeyne/Frey Girl vibe here. Robb agrees to an arranged marriage to the daughter of an important Lord in order to gain an advantage in the War (which is revenge for his father's death/his quest to become KitN), but he breaks his vow and falls in love with/secretly marries another girl. So it could very well have been Brandon who fell for Ashara (or someone else) and almost ruined the Stark/Tully southron allegiance. Hmm. Can we get any Frey/Craster parallels here? However, I think Ned and Ashara were a thing. Jon and his far northern girl and Ned and his far southern girl. Ned loves her but can't make her his wife because Brandon dies and he's duty bound to marry his brother's intended, Catelyn. Continuing the undercover mission, the FSoW agrees to accompany the King’s men on a special mission to breach the Wall and take his forces south to invade. FSoW goes along with the first part of the plan – getting south of the Wall undetected, along with his now-lover (who almost dies in the attempt) - but then can’t follow through with the rest. The tipping point is when the FSoW is ordred to kill an innocent man in order to prove his loyalty. He refuses, his lover kills the man herself, and the FSoW escapes as his lover turns on him and tries to kill him too. - I think this is the Fisherman's Daughter event. So if Jon = Ned, supposed to kill who? maester Walys? the maester of Dragonstone? The captain of the boat? Either way, Ned bails, Ashara turns on him. Later, his lover-turned-enemy dies after seeing him again one last time, paralleling Ygritte.This is screaming ToJ to me. Is Arthur Dayne the innocent man? OH WAIT. At Queenscrown, while Jon is fighting, having switched sides against his lover for the sake of honor, he doesn't realize that his "brother" Bran is in a nearby tower, along with a greenseer and his sister, and a servant named Hodor who Bran skinchanges for the first time in order to save them from the tumult. At the ToJ, while Ned is fighting, having let his greenseer friend do the dirty work, he doesn't realize that his "sister" Lyanna is in a nearby tower, along with his lover Ashara, and a servant named Wylla who Lyanna skinchanges in order to save them from the tumult. Possibly Wylla and Ashara being the same person... or southern Ashara mirroring northern Osha? Bran/Lyanna both having been terribly injured/crippled, both having had to secretly hide in the crypts and leave their home because they had a sacred mission to fulfill.So who would have come to Lyanna to tell her about her secret mission? Mance? Mance/Rhaegar. I need to think more on this one lol, because I don't know if Howland and Ned being lovers serves the story. Anyway, more in a few...
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Sept 27, 2017 16:08:52 GMT
I'm totally lost and confused right now. Will have to wait until I'm at home and can focus before contributing.
|
|