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Post by Weasel Pie on Feb 2, 2018 4:25:31 GMT
Just found this drawing of Baal, it's marked Bael however. Human, toad and cat. Interesting. For some reason I have father, son and holy ghost stuck in my head. "one God in three Divine Persons" aaaand I'm wondering how we can tie this into skinchanging multiple people at the same time
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Post by Melifeather on Feb 2, 2018 4:28:27 GMT
Just an FYI - I've made a lot of edits to my last few posts while you were posting this.
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Post by Melifeather on Feb 2, 2018 4:28:59 GMT
Just found this drawing of Baal, it's marked Bael however. Human, toad and cat. Interesting. For some reason I have father, son and holy ghost stuck in my head. "one God in three Divine Persons" aaaand I'm wondering how we can tie this into skinchanging multiple people at the same time This depiction is creepy AF!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Feb 2, 2018 4:35:55 GMT
I can see how the three-headed Bael (the 3-Kingsguard) could be controlled by a 4th - Rhaegar perhaps - even though I have my doubts about going in that direction, but they also could have just been fulfilling the role of Bael of their own accord and basically on accident. I say "on accident", because Yoren didn't deliberately go to Kings Landing intent on Bael'ing Arya out. It just became a necessity and his intensions were actually noble. The circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance may have been similar, but mirrored, because her father was executed after she went missing. So the question is, who was the man of the Nights Watch that helped her leave Winterfell? Was she Bael'ed out after all? Arthur was just one head out of three, and just two legs of a Bael spider! It would also be fitting for the prophecy-obsessed Targaryens to have mistaken the 3-heads of the dragon for a 3-headed Bael. I suppose the question is, who was capable of skinchanging the three Kingsguard at the same time? There's your Bael. Arya was already technically "missing" and "hiding in plain sight in disguise" when she saw Ned beheaded. So Lyanna was at court in disguise and saw Rickard/Brandon die? Strong possibility that she was bael'ed out of KL then and there. But since I'm partial to her being hidden in Winterfell during those events, the only really possible suspect is Mance?
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Post by Melifeather on Feb 2, 2018 4:43:12 GMT
I can see how the three-headed Bael (the 3-Kingsguard) could be controlled by a 4th - Rhaegar perhaps - even though I have my doubts about going in that direction, but they also could have just been fulfilling the role of Bael of their own accord and basically on accident. I say "on accident", because Yoren didn't deliberately go to Kings Landing intent on Bael'ing Arya out. It just became a necessity and his intensions were actually noble. The circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance may have been similar, but mirrored, because her father was executed after she went missing. So the question is, who was the man of the Nights Watch that helped her leave Winterfell? Was she Bael'ed out after all? Arthur was just one head out of three, and just two legs of a Bael spider! It would also be fitting for the prophecy-obsessed Targaryens to have mistaken the 3-heads of the dragon for a 3-headed Bael. I suppose the question is, who was capable of skinchanging the three Kingsguard at the same time? There's your Bael. Arya was already technically "missing" and "hiding in plain sight in disguise" when she saw Ned beheaded. So Lyanna was at court in disguise and saw Rickard/Brandon die? Strong possibility that she was bael'ed out of KL then and there. But since I'm partial to her being hidden in Winterfell during those events, the only really possible suspect is Mance? I have to admit I'm back on the Mance Rayder train! He must have been Lyanna's "Yoren" and Bael'ed her out of Winterfell so that Rickard couldn't marry her off to Robert. Fuck the tower of joy fever dream! (pardon my French) IMO the fever dream was repeatedly sent to Ned by Bloodraven, because he was trying to keep Ned from remembering the truth. The whole dream is a depiction of seven princes fighting a three headed Bael.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Feb 2, 2018 4:50:33 GMT
I suppose the question is, who was capable of skinchanging the three Kingsguard at the same time? There's your Bael. Arya was already technically "missing" and "hiding in plain sight in disguise" when she saw Ned beheaded. So Lyanna was at court in disguise and saw Rickard/Brandon die? Strong possibility that she was bael'ed out of KL then and there. But since I'm partial to her being hidden in Winterfell during those events, the only really possible suspect is Mance? I have to admit I'm back on the Mance Rayder train! He must have been Lyanna's "Yoren" and Bael'ed her out of Winterfell so that Rickard couldn't marry her off to Robert. Fuck the tower of joy fever dream! (pardon my French) IMO the fever dream was repeatedly sent to Ned by Bloodraven, because he was trying to keep Ned from remembering the truth. The whole dream is a depiction of seven princes fighting a three headed Bael. The Mance angle plays out here, I agree, it's kind of exciting actually. We know he was glamoured and seems to have pulled it off like a pro, I wonder if that's similar to creatures/people needing to get used to being skinchanged? Meaning... was Mance himself being controlled/skinchanged. Was he three-headed. Say... Bloodraven (or Bran), Mance himself and Holy Ghost being whatever ancient evil dare I say Otherness that has inhabitation/animation powers? GRRM is obviously marketing Mance as a Bael, it's all right there in the story.
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Post by Melifeather on Feb 2, 2018 5:30:09 GMT
We should explore the ancient non-human Bael disguised as Mance angle. It would help support your Jon Otherbaby theory. Lyanna was the dead mother direwolf that gave birth, and Jon is the albino pup born with the dead.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Feb 2, 2018 5:37:24 GMT
lol, anything in support of Otherbaby. Jon as "son of god" even if it's god of the underworld, so much more interesting than the hidden legitimate prince trope. ties back into Val and Dalla/Valhalla again too
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Post by Melifeather on Feb 2, 2018 17:07:35 GMT
Revisiting this whole thread now that we have a better understanding of who or what Bael is. He's a three-headed Other/Monster. Lets get some highlights down and see if we can't mine them for additional insight. I had intended to talk about the significance of the blue roses at the Harrenhal tourney Just wanted to grab this as proof that winter roses are indeed "pale blue" and not just symbolic of death. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. Don't call Bael a craven! Apparently this is the original insult that started it all. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak." Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. I'm hung up on "the rose he'd plucked unasked"...forcefully taking a woman is rape. Are we assuming the child was left behind because it wasn't Bael's son? Was the babe a product of incest? Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword." When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Here we go with a female throwing herself from a tower - a descent into the underworld. during the Age of Heroes, the Boltons used to flay the Starks and wear their skins as cloaks." The Age of Heroes came after the Pact, so the Bolton's beef with the Starks is a very old one, and proof that the Starks were skinchanging way back then too. "Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather's grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard." Bael is very old and from beyond the Wall, and likely connected to the Others that were banished beyond after the Long Night. Enter Bael. It just so happens that he enters the picture from beyond the Wall on a winter’s night right when the winter roses had come into bloom. Read between the lines here – the "winter rose" isn’t the dang flower in the garden, it’s the Stark maiden herself who has flowered. She has come of age to mate. The Stark daughter "flowered" and Lord Stark didn't want Bael to have her maidenhead, so the poor girl was raped. The Lord Stark commands that the winter rose be plucked in order to be given to Bael; and so it was done. Well, we all know what it means to pluck a maiden’s flower – so here we have the Stark in Winterfell overseeing the loss of his daughter’s virginity before he hands her over; I suspect that the Lord Stark did the deed himself..or rather, had already done it. I'm on board with this. Bael didn't ask for the flower, he asked for the Lord's daughter....so maybe the winter roses are not actually blue then! The winter rose is the Stark daughter. The rose and her babe reappear in Winterfell. Bael had apparently hidden her in the crypts , where she gave birth to a son...a son born with the dead. The Stark daughter is found "asleep" with the babe at her breast, which IMO has similar imagery to the dead mother direwolf and her very much alive pups attempting to nurse off her corpse. Oddly, Ygritte says, "The song ends when they find the babe“, but that babe grows to be the next Lord Stark, continuing the bloodline. Agreed. The maid was asleep in death and pale blue. If it involves Starkcest first. Regardless of who fathered the babe - Bael or the Lord Stark - it goes back to a forbidden sexual relationship between family members. Bael takes the blame for fathering the child, but the child was a bastard. That is also why the Lord didn't hesitate to put his son in line for inheritance. Lyanna Stark, given blue roses at the Tourney of Harrenhal. Her brother Brandon Stark growing enraged at the gesture. Blue roses = plucked roses. Roses plucked by a Stark. Or maybe Lyanna was still a maiden, but Rhaegar was accusing the Starks for something he expected would happen? The Starks were greatly insulted, because no one was planning on raping Lyanna into having Stark incest. Rickard was marrying off his daughter to Robert to effectively escape the "Bael" excuse to explain a bastard. Bael entered Winterfell and partook of the Lord Stark's guest right disguised as a singer named Sygerrik, or "deceiver". What is another word for "deceiver"? Trickster. What in ASOIAF is associated with tricks and deception? Crows.This is evidence that Bael is disguised as Mance. There needs to be a connection to the Nights Watch.
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Post by Melifeather on Feb 2, 2018 17:52:58 GMT
If my "Lyanna at court" interpretation is correct, then Rickard may have sent Lyanna there to get her away from her brother. Having Lyanna at court would makes sense and tie her journey more closely to where Arya started out. Arya was smuggled out of Kings Landing by Yoren, a man of the Nights Watch. I guess it's not impossible for an unhuman Bael to skip all the way down the Kingsroad to the Red Keep. Also - when Lyanna went missing, Brandon went directly to Kings Landing, "yes" to confront Rhaegar, but also if that was the last place she was supposed to be.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Feb 2, 2018 19:30:01 GMT
Don't call Bael a craven! Apparently this is the original insult that started it all. In Back to the Future, calling Marty a chicken caused all sorts of problems, GoT was published a decade later, BOOM Bael is a time traveller. GRRMs pilot called Doorways was also about time travel, specifically the problem of reaching a "door" = HODOR. /crackpot intermission
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Feb 9, 2018 0:33:56 GMT
Just dropping this here as a finding from something else I'm doing. Beelzebub, meaning "Lord of Flies", is the contemptuous name given in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament to a Philistine god whose original name has been reconstructed as most probably "Ba'al Zabul", meaning "Baal the Prince". The Synoptic Gospels identify Satan and Beelzebub as the same.
In the Book of Revelation, Satan appears as a Great Red Dragon, who is defeated by Michael the Archangel and cast down from Heaven. He is later bound for one thousand years, but is briefly set free before being ultimately defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 12:3 describes a vision of a Great Red Dragon with seven heads, ten horns, seven crowns, and a massive tail, an image which is clearly inspired by the vision of the four beasts from the sea in the Book of Daniel [which I have talked about before in THIS THREAD ] and the Leviathan described in various Old Testament passages. The Great Red Dragon knocks "a third of the sun... a third of the moon, and a third of the stars" out of the sky and pursues the Woman of the Apocalypse. Revelation 12:7-9 declares: "And war broke out in Heaven. Michael and his angels fought against Dragon. Dragon and his angels fought back, but they were defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in Heaven. Dragon the Great was thrown down, that ancient serpent who is called Devil and Satan, the one deceiving the whole inhabited World - he was thrown down to earth and his angels were thrown down with him." The Woman of the Apocalypse is a figure from Chapter 12 of the Book of Revelation (written c. AD 95). In this narrative the woman gives birth to a male child that is attacked by the Dragon identified as the Devil and Satan. When the child is taken to heaven, the woman flees into the wilderness leading to "War in Heaven" in which the angels cast out the Dragon. The Dragon attacks the woman, who is given wings to escape, and then attacks her again with a flood of water from his mouth, which is subsequently swallowed by the earth. Frustrated, the dragon initiates war on "the remnant of her seed" identified as the righteous followers of Christ. The text describes "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars" (12:1). The woman is pregnant and about to give birth, "travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered" (12:2). Then there is " a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads" (12:3) who is about to " devour her child as soon as it was born" (12:4). But her child is "caught up unto God" (12:5), and the woman herself is " fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." (12:6) Then there is a description of "War in Heaven" of the angels against the dragon, and "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (12:9) The woman is again mentioned in 12:13, as she is persecuted by the dragon, and " two wings of a great eagle" are given to her to escape (12:14). The dragon attacks her by "water as a flood" emerging from his mouth (12:15), but the flood is swallowed up by the earth (12:16), so the dragon went "to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (12:17). The Woman of the Apocalypse is widely identified as the Virgin Mary. Not to be confused with Whore of Babylon. So much Lyanna symbolism here I don't even know where to begin, really. The virginal woman giving birth to her male child that is prophesied to cast down the dragon, and the dragon's intent to destroy said child to circumvent the prophecy. The woman fleeing into the woods, separated from her child who has been taken under "God's" protection - a place of the God, the God's Eye. While her son ascends to the throne of Heaven, she lives in exodus, taken under the protective "wings" of a giant bird - an eagle in the Bible, much like the eagle atop Yggdrasil the World Tree in Norse mythology, the eagle that represents omniscience...much like ravens in our story. A standing woman whose feet are placed on a big moon crescent and whose head wears a crown of 12 stars - this is a very similar depiction of Baal/Bael's wife Ashtoreth, except in her case the crescent moon is atop her head instead of beneath her feet...an inverted image. Clothed with the sun - taken to Dorne. And course the Woman of the Apocalypse is the opposite of the Whore of Babylon, who will serve in the Ashara Dayne role in this story. Ashara has much in common with Ashtoreth, stars imagery and whatnot; Ashtoreth is also associated with ritual prostitution , as is the Whore of Babylon, naturally. You guys know I've been tugging at the "wherever whores go" idea for a while now, so this is like soopar exciting to me. And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. [King James Version; the New International Version uses "prostitutes" instead of "harlots"]. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Drunken with blood of saints and martyrs - blood magic. Holy wow, I have a lot of work to do. But this is it, this is how they all connect. More to come on the significance of Babylon.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Feb 9, 2018 2:57:08 GMT
The Woman of the Apocalypse is widely identified as the Virgin Mary. Not to be confused with Whore of Babylon. So much Lyanna symbolism here I don't even know where to begin, really. The virginal woman giving birth to her male child that is prophesied to cast down the dragon, and the dragon's intent to destroy said child to circumvent the prophecy. The woman fleeing into the woods, separated from her child who has been taken under "God's" protection - a place of the God, the God's Eye. While her son ascends to the throne of Heaven, she lives in exodus, taken under the protective "wings" of a giant bird - an eagle in the Bible, much like the eagle atop Yggdrasil the World Tree in Norse mythology, the eagle that represents omniscience...much like ravens in our story. A standing woman whose feet are placed on a big moon crescent and whose head wears a crown of 12 stars - this is a very similar depiction of Baal/Bael's wife Ashtoreth, except in her case the crescent moon is atop her head instead of beneath her feet...an inverted image. Clothed with the sun - taken to Dorne. Yes, with "God" as Jon's father mwahaha Taken to the God's Eye - I like. Shocked how much this ties into everything, it's on point. Do you remember some ramble I had a bit ago, about the blue star flowers? Which acted as a sort of key? Crown of stars = laurel of blue roses Lyanna as a virgin, hell yes. Rhaegar targeting her child because he knows the child will grow up to be the enemy of his son Aegon, the prince that was promised. All fits, need to read through again
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Feb 9, 2018 3:15:57 GMT
Also: then attacks her again with a flood of water from his mouth, which is subsequently swallowed by the earth what floods from a dragon's mouth? (At least on GRRth) Fire. What flame is subsequently swallowed by the earth? LAVA. Volcanoes, dude. It all comes back to volcanoes!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Feb 9, 2018 3:18:49 GMT
subsequently swallowed by the earth? and tunnels and hollow earth as a literal "underworld"
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