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Post by Weasel Pie on Nov 23, 2016 23:35:27 GMT
We've got a pretty cool parallel with Aemon Steelsong and Monster too. Don't have it all handy, but the bottom line is that Sam, who has been around Monster since he was born, doesn't even notice when he was switched with Aemon S. Exactly. And Monster is 2-3 months older than Aemon, but the weaker of the two. It's not as if all the men-in-charge were changing nappies or doing tummy time and would notice. Shoot, in those days kids probably weren't distinguishable to anyone besides their parents until they were around 10. And Catelyn is all about "I could barely look at Jon..." So the argument that Catelyn as a woman, or as a mother, would notice an age disparity, doesn't work for me. Complete denial for her to say "Luwin always said bastards grow up faster." I get a picture of the two little boys or babies playing, and she catches a glimpse, or something is relayed to her by the help. "Jon is bigger" or "Jon walked first" and Luwin hands her a line to make her feel better, especially because she is obsessed with Robb being the firstborn, and Jon being... not. Ned would have totally played into that. "Sure Cat, of course Robb is older..."
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 24, 2016 0:01:59 GMT
So the argument that Catelyn as a woman, or as a mother, would notice an age disparity, doesn't work for me. Agreed...to an extent. Cat would never pick up on a difference of a few months - hell, maybe even nearer to 6 months - but even someone that willfully blind would have trouble glossing over a contrast like a tiny infant that can barely hold his head up yet versus a walking, semi-talking toddler and saying they're "of an age". Hence why I have trouble with the theories that Jon = Brandon + Ashara, etc. I know that Robert is a popular papa choice here but I just can't get on board with it due to that glaring discrepancy.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 24, 2016 0:13:48 GMT
Sooo, are you leaning more towards Starkcest?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Nov 24, 2016 0:14:52 GMT
even someone that willfully blind would have trouble glossing over a contrast like a tiny infant that can barely hold his head up yet versus a walking, semi-talking toddler and saying they're "of an age". Hence why I have trouble with the theories that Jon = Brandon + Ashara, etc. I know that Robert is a popular papa choice here but I just can't get on board with it due to that glaring discrepancy. I agree that, as a stretch, 6 months (maybe) would be the biggest difference that someone in major denial could "rationalize" away. However, that would be while comparing infants. If someone were to compare a tallish, verbal 2 year old with a smallish and slower-to-advance 4 year old, the difference could be much more blurred.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 24, 2016 0:18:34 GMT
However, that would be while comparing infants. If someone were to compare a tallish, verbal 2 year old with a smallish and slower-to-advance 4 year old, the difference could be much more blurred. Oh, for sure. There were some kids in my boys' kinder class that would have easily passed for 3rd graders. If I'm looking at the whole gaggle out on the school playground, I couldn't tell you any of their ages except mine! I'm just using the infant comparison given what we're told about Robb and Jon in the text.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Nov 24, 2016 0:25:26 GMT
However, that would be while comparing infants. If someone were to compare a tallish, verbal 2 year old with a smallish and slower-to-advance 4 year old, the difference could be much more blurred. Oh, for sure. There were some kids in my boys' kinder class that would have easily passed for 3rd graders. If I'm looking at the whole gaggle out on the school playground, I couldn't tell you any of their ages except mine! I'm just using the infant comparison given what we're told about Robb and Jon in the text. So I suppose we can't know at what age Cat was comparing Robb and Jon's development. She made it pretty clear she couldn't bear to lay eyes on Jon, and she made it pretty clear that at some point Luwin had to offer up that "bastards grow up faster." I tend to think this comparison didn't happen until both boys were out of infanthood. Also... children wouldn't be playing together and interacting in a meaningful way until they were past their infant years. If Cat were comparing Robb and Jon as toddlers, it makes much more sense that she could "accept" Robb was older, with the caveat about bastards "growing up faster."
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 24, 2016 0:51:23 GMT
So I suppose we can't know at what age Cat was comparing Robb and Jon's development. She made it pretty clear she couldn't bear to lay eyes on Jon, and she made it pretty clear that at some point Luwin had to offer up that "bastards grow up faster." I tend to think this comparison didn't happen until both boys were out of infanthood. Could be. She was more or less confronted with it when she arrived at Winterfell though, no? I didn't get the impression that Ned kept Jon locked away in the Broken Tower until he was older. I dunno, it just seems a bit disingenuous to talk about them being so close in age and drop all the tidbits about Cat learning of Jon during Robb's infancy and all that, and have a big reveal later that they're actually two years apart. But, I'm not writing the story, who knows what GRRM will pull? Totally on board with Jon being older, but half a year is probably my top comfort level.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Nov 24, 2016 0:56:23 GMT
So I suppose we can't know at what age Cat was comparing Robb and Jon's development. She made it pretty clear she couldn't bear to lay eyes on Jon, and she made it pretty clear that at some point Luwin had to offer up that "bastards grow up faster." I tend to think this comparison didn't happen until both boys were out of infanthood. Could be. She was more or less confronted with it when she arrived at Winterfell though, no? I didn't get the impression that Ned kept Jon locked away in the Broken Tower until he was older. I dunno, it just seems a bit disingenuous to talk about them being so close in age and drop all the tidbits about Cat learning of Jon during Robb's infancy and all that, and have a big reveal later that they're actually two years apart. But, I'm not writing the story, who knows what GRRM will pull? Totally on board with Jon being older, but half a year is probably my top comfort level. I get it. I just try to imagine a scene where Cat expresses some kind of doubt or concern to Luwin, and he says "well bastards grow up faster." Because I don't think he would offer that up out of the blue, something prompted it. And I don't think Cat would express a concern over some babies swaddled up and... just being babies. The "growing up faster" comment implies the babies had been growing up in order for the comparison to happen at all. Clarification: Cat had to see something that bothered her, in order for Luwin to offer up his comment to make her feel better. And I can't imagine what infants might do that would be so shockingly different for Cat to notice, but I can imagine all sorts of ways toddlers would show different levels of development.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 24, 2016 1:03:40 GMT
The "growing up faster" comment implies the babies had been growing up in order for the comparison to happen at all. Ahh, I gotcha. Yep, I imagine that if Jon hit a major milestone - a really noticeable one - or had a big growth spurt or something, Luwin (who I am certain was in on "it", whatever "it" was, from the time of Walys Flowers' disappearance) would have to scramble.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Nov 24, 2016 1:11:00 GMT
The "growing up faster" comment implies the babies had been growing up in order for the comparison to happen at all. Ahh, I gotcha. Yep, I imagine that if Jon hit a major milestone - a really noticeable one - or had a big growth spurt or something, Luwin (who I am certain was in on "it", whatever "it" was, from the time of Walys Flowers' disappearance) would have to scramble. If I recall correctly, there was something strange about Mance seeing Jon and Robb when he visited Winterfell with Qorgyle. ETA damn you Walys! *shakes fist!
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 24, 2016 1:55:03 GMT
I'm with ya now. Do you think it stands to reason though that even though Jon must have done *whatever* 'first' that caught Cat's eye, she must have first been under the assumption that both boys were at approximately the same starting point? I've argued with several people that this assumption would have to have some visual context to allow her internal confirmation of this.
Again, this is mainly in relation to the idea that Jon is 1+ year older than Robb. My bias as a parent is probably showing here, but to me that would seem easily and visually disprovable until both kids were over 4 because SO MUCH developmental stuff is happening. To me, the only way to pull off that kind of age gap is to keep Jon hidden away until that development window has closed a bit. Like I said, I might not be able to tell the difference between a small 7yo and a big 5yo, but I can absolutely tell the difference between a 3 month old and an 18 month old, or a 2yo and a 4yo even at a glance from afar. It's that obvious. My thought is that Cat first got her eyeballs on Jon at a point at which small to moderate age differences would not be so noticeable....meaning, either as tiny babies (because all babies look alike) or as "big kids" (because who can tell when it's all legs and elbows). We have nothing to support the latter, really, so I go with the former.
Does that make sense? I have no idea what I'm saying right now.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Nov 24, 2016 2:18:32 GMT
o you think it stands to reason though that even though Jon must have done *whatever* 'first' that caught Cat's eye, she must have first been under the assumption that both boys were at approximately the same starting point? I've argued with several people that this assumption would have to have some visual context to allow her internal confirmation of this. I think she was under the impression that Ned had the affair that resulted in Jon after their marriage, because this seems to be what Ned either told her or heavily implied. She would have no reason at all to think Jon was conceived before her marriage to Ned. It's hard for anyone to believe Ned would admit to fathering Jon while married if that's not true. Ya? Another point is... how is the narrative served by comments such as "Robb was such a little thing" or "bastards grow up faster"... if those comments don't serve the narrative lol. I get it, no worries. I think Jon is older, no doubt. How much older, I dunno!
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Post by min on Nov 24, 2016 2:39:07 GMT
Here's what Catelyn says about Jon Snow after Ned's death:
A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VI
"Those who favor Stannis will call it proof. Those who support Joffrey will say it means nothing." Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine. She found herself thinking of Jon's mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine?
They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.
Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon, and Ser Cortnay Penrose had given up his life for this Edric Storm, yet Roose Bolton's bastard had meant less to him than one of his dogs, to judge from the tone of the queer cold letter Edmure had gotten from him not three days past. He had crossed the Trident and was marching on Harrenhal as commanded, he wrote. "A strong castle, and well garrisoned, but His Grace shall have it, if I must kill every living soul within to make it so." He hoped His Grace would weigh that against the crimes of his bastard son, whom Ser Rodrik Cassel had put to death. "A fate he no doubt earned," Bolton had written. "Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay's nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe while he lived."
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Post by Maester Flagons on Nov 24, 2016 3:44:21 GMT
I don't know if this has been brought up before when troubleshooting the timeline of births and whatnot... Why did Catelyn wait so long to travel to Winterfell? (Maybe it wasn't as long as I'm thinking but here it go) The seasons lasts years... Before the Rebellion, we have the false spring, then winter returns and eventually spring again. Rhaegar, Brandon, Call to arms, blah blah blah. I'm guessing that the wrapping up of the war occured during the Spring season. Ned's last known locations to conclude the war are the tower and Starfall. Months pass before Jon (officialy) and Ned (supposedly) arrives at Winterfell. Catelyn has not yet arrived at this time. So what's the hold up? Well, if your going to be travelling with a small child on horseback, then you would want to do so in the best weather. In the North the best weather will be during the Summer season. If it can snow during the Summer then the northern Spring seawon chould be dealing out cold and snow and ice. Not a great time to chance unnecessary travelling through the north. Not when your nice and cozy in a Lord's castle.
Mayhaps Catelyn waited for the official summer report from the masters, via the white ravens, to begin her journey to Winterfell just to play it safe. No need to risk a hurried departure from her home in Riverrun. By the time she arrived in Winterfell, the boys could be well on their way to walking, babbling babes in arms and not the 'infants' that we think them of. Well, at the least, 7 - 10 months of age? I don't think Robb and Jon would be too much beyond a year and a half or two since Jon is still nursing when Catelyn arrives with Robb. Still...
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 24, 2016 4:50:49 GMT
Mayhaps Catelyn waited for the official summer report from the masters, via the white ravens, to begin her journey to Winterfell just to play it safe. No need to risk a hurried departure from her home in Riverrun. By the time she arrived in Winterfell, the boys could be well on their way to walking, babbling babes in arms and not the 'infants' that we think them of. Well, at the least, 7 - 10 months of age? I think the only thing to go on here is that Cat mentions being apart from Ned for a year after they married - Robb had already been born by the time she found out about Jon (also already born, obv) and Robb was born in late 283. (BotB was around the start of 283 - fought on the first day of the new year, iirc? - and the Ned/Cat wedding was right after that, so Robb is an October or November baby.) Speculation: Ok, so Robb is a baby when she gets the news, so let's say it's December/January when Cat learns of Jon. And yes, dead of winter. By this time, Ned has ended the siege at SE and hoofed it to Dorne. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that *someone* in/around Dorne let slip that Ned Stark had a kiddo in tow when he visited Starfall. (Won't bother with TOJ/Starfall birth semantics here; it doesn't matter.) Gossip flies, of course, and Jon's existence makes its way through the Arbor grapevine to Cat, who is still holed up in RR waiting for the weather to break/Ned to come back. She assumes that since she HEARS the gossip after Robb's birth, this also means Jon's birth occurred AFTER Robb's. This is a error of logical fallacy, however. Two or three more months pass - Ned is returning from Dorne on his "long journey, many months". It would now be Marchish. Weather in the Riverlands and North improves; Cat knows that Ned is en route to Winterfell. Let's say that Ned took a ship back, and docked at White Harbor. Raven flies from WH to RR announcing his arrival, so Cat/Robb/Luwin depart Riverrun in the springlike weather and head north. Ned makes it to Winterfell ahead of Cat; Cat arrives and Jon is already tucked in. It's now a titch more than a year since Ned and Cat married - like 14/15 months, maybe. So yes...I think it is very reasonable to say that Robb was probably between 5 and 7 months old when he arrived at Winterfell...and IMO Jon would be 2 to 3 months older than that. Not enough to be instantly noticeable, and just enough to be able to fudge various developmental things by saying "bastards grow up faster". Jon has a mouf full of teef? OK, some kids cut their teeth really early. Robb starts walking at a year old but Jon still isn't? Makes sense, if Jon is supposedly the younger kid...and even if he really isn't the younger one, some kids still don't walk until they're 15-18 months. Or, Jon starts walking at his "assumed" age of 10 months (when he's actually ~1yo)? Whatever, some kids are quick to walk. Anyway, I agree that the weather was a variant, and also that the babies weren't newborns when they were first brought together. I do think they were both under a year though, based on Cat's statements of her war timeline.
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