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Post by Melifeather on Mar 23, 2016 14:24:04 GMT
I think the lightning strike signifies the "change", the time that Bran flipped Westeros's reality. The lightning strike is where Bran "entered" this reality and placed himself where Jaime would push him.
What I find interesting is did he actually change the past, or did he just cause a layering effect of memories? Because the people that were changed by the reality flip are the current characters. In my Wheel of Time project we're learning what the characters did before and how the current characters are acting like these past characters. He's trying to affect a modern day change, making the current characters act out what the past already did. The process has created false memories as reported by Daenerys. She not only remembers the actual events, but her memories are layered over by events that never happened, but could have happened. For example, I think she really did go to either Dorne or Braavos, but her memories are layered over by the false, alternate reality of going to Bear Island.
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Post by min on Mar 23, 2016 14:31:41 GMT
Ah yes, the chestnut tree, that's the one. I am fascinated with the reframing of Bran as time lord. I'd could discuss this all day. LOL! Alas, I have a bunch of reframing of my own to do and I have to get to work, if I'm going to finish any time soon.
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Post by min on Mar 23, 2016 15:06:46 GMT
Blasting the old chestnut.
ye olde chestnut:
- a ​subject, ​idea, or ​joke that has been ​discussed or ​repeated so often that it is not ​funny any more
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Post by Ser Duncan on Mar 23, 2016 15:13:59 GMT
What I find interesting is did he actually change the past, or did he just cause a layering effect of memories? Because the people that were changed by the reality flip are the current characters. In my Wheel of Time project we're learning what the characters did before and how the current characters are acting like these past characters. He's trying to affect a modern day change, making the current characters act out what the past already did. The process has created false memories as reported by Daenerys. She not only remembers the actual events, but her memories are layered over by events that never happened, but could have happened. For example, I think she really did go to either Dorne or Braavos, but her memories are layered over by the false, alternate reality of going to Bear Island. I don't think that would be possible. Memories can't get muddled because if they did, then someone would cotton on that changes are being made. I think Dany's false memories are entirely due to her being lied to. We each of us have false memories of past events, it's normal and natural to do that. Both Sansa and Arya, mistake past events for what their head canon tells them happened. In Dany's case, she's got what happened to her, what Viserys said happened to them, and what the other adults told her happened, all fighting with real memories that she has of her own and she's melding them together, just like we all do, in order to have them make sense in her head, not in reality. The reason I don't think Bran's meddling affects memories is two fold. First, if it's noted by the characters themselves, then they may act independently and work against anything that Bran did. Take that Jaime example, if Jaime was ever aware that he was taken over and used, then he would not have the memory of actually pushing Bran from the window. And we know he does because he confessed it to Catelyn. He'd have a loss of time, or loss of memory, in which he would remember the event beginning and ending, but not his actions in between. Something more subtle is going on, more of a suggestion, rather than a complete taking over. Second, there a lot of people whose job it is to take note and record the histories of Westeros as they are happening. If every time Bran affected a change was noted by these folk the pattern would become apparent and someone would be bound to notice. In other words, when Bran changes something, everything changes, including what was written in the past about events on a day to day level. So, the only way to make things work would be, the only ones able to remember the changes affected and their effects would have to be the one doing the changing. I'd add the outside possibility that someone like Leaf or the other Greenseers in the cave may know as well. You'd have to be out of time, not in the course of time and events in order for the changes to evident. Otherwise, it wouldn't work, because sooner or later, the actual characters will figure it out.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 23, 2016 15:23:05 GMT
What I find interesting is did he actually change the past, or did he just cause a layering effect of memories? Because the people that were changed by the reality flip are the current characters. In my Wheel of Time project we're learning what the characters did before and how the current characters are acting like these past characters. He's trying to affect a modern day change, making the current characters act out what the past already did. The process has created false memories as reported by Daenerys. She not only remembers the actual events, but her memories are layered over by events that never happened, but could have happened. For example, I think she really did go to either Dorne or Braavos, but her memories are layered over by the false, alternate reality of going to Bear Island. I don't think that would be possible. Memories can't get muddled because if they did, then someone would cotton on that changes are being made. I think Dany's false memories are entirely due to her being lied to. We each of us have false memories of past events, it's normal and natural to do that. Both Sansa and Arya, mistake past events for what their head canon tells them happened. In Dany's case, she's got what happened to her, what Viserys said happened to them, and what the other adults told her happened, all fighting with real memories that she has of her own and she's melding them together, just like we all do, in order to have them make sense in her head, not in reality. The reason I don't think Bran's meddling affects memories is two fold. First, if it's noted by the characters themselves, then they may act independently and work against anything that Bran did. Take that Jaime example, if Jaime was ever aware that he was taken over and used, then he would not have the memory of actually pushing Bran from the window. And we know he does because he confessed it to Catelyn. He'd have a loss of time, or loss of memory, in which he would remember the event beginning and ending, but not his actions in between. Something more subtle is going on, more of a suggestion, rather than a complete taking over. Second, there a lot of people whose job it is to take note and record the histories of Westeros as they are happening. If every time Bran affected a change was noted by these folk the pattern would become apparent and someone would be bound to notice. In other words, when Bran changes something, everything changes, including what was written in the past about events on a day to day level. So, the only way to make things work would be, the only ones able to remember the changes affected and their effects would have to be the one doing the changing. I'd add the outside possibility that someone like Leaf or the other Greenseers in the cave may know as well. You'd have to be out of time, not in the course of time and events in order for the changes to evident. Otherwise, it wouldn't work, because sooner or later, the actual characters will figure it out. The examples that you listed actually confirm my suspicion that Bran did not change the past. He changed the future. The current characters are reliving the past, but the altering of reality has caused some of our characters to have wonky, conflicting memories. Of course Jaime pushed Bran. Bran put himself in that position on purpose. The lightning strike in the past is because that's where he entered the alternate reality in order to change the future. Again, I am stressing that he did not change the past. He made all of present day Westeros enter an alternate reality where everyone is reliving the past. Edited to add: The flipping of the current reality has blurred some of the character's memories. There has to be some indication that Bran has altered the future. I cannot wait to discover who Jon's parents are, because I think the answer is in one of the uniquely named POVs, but the flipped reality has caused some people to remember weird details. Most of the people that are remembering weird things, like Ned, are dead. I don't think Daenerys is aware that she has mixed memories. She remembers Willem Derry as an "old bear", but dollars to donuts I'd be willing to bet that he looked nothing like Jeor Mormont in real life. She only remembers him looking that way because of the flipped reality. We know Jeor didn't die like Willem did. He was alive and well on the Wall up until he was killed at Craster's.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 24, 2016 18:52:51 GMT
If my through the looking glass theory of Bran changing the future by having Westeros relive the past is true, think about this:
Ned's fever dream.
If Bran didn't change the past, but his manipulation of the present that was done in order to achieve a different result...it caused Ned to mis-remember Lyanna's death. If east is west, and north is south, then Lyanna died in a broken tower near Winterfell, and it may have been the very tower Bran was pushed out of. This layering over of altered reality caused Ned's memories to change and have the tower near Winterfell line up just about over the top of the tower of joy, and Ned's memory of returning Arthur Dayne's sword to Starfall means that in real life he took the sword back home to Winterfell. This altered reality also occurred at Starfall, and the people there have a false memory of Ned returning the sword, but no one from Starfall has the sword called Dawn. Why is that? They claim that they are waiting for a new Sword of the Morning to arise, but that implies that the SofM will have the sword, which seems like nobody in Starfall actually knows where it is.
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Post by min on Mar 24, 2016 19:12:47 GMT
Consider Mel's ruby. It pulses in time with her heart and it's located at her throat. She thinks about the pain of the fire within but that she has no choice but to drink it down. Then consider Mance's glamor and the ruby at his wrist slaved to her own ruby. He says he can feel it burning as well. When she breaks the glamor; the ruby turns black. Ergo a ruby is not a ruby; but a piece of black rock.
I suspect that the ruby is a piece of the fountain of the drunken god or made of the same stuff. Black rock that fell from the sky when the comet hit the ice moon; if you have been following Lucifer means Lightbringers essays.
The wellspring of fire magic contained within the Great Temple of R'hllor surrounded by a 1000 Firey Hands. Not unlike Bran's vision at the top of the world of the icy spears. This would be my guess for the wellspring of ice.
I think that Mel accesses the fountain continuously through the ruby at her throat and that she can draw on it. She does this when she burns rattleshirt and maintains glamors on Stannis' sword, rattleshirt and I suspect the horn as well. But it almost gets away from her. If Jon hadn't killed rattleshirt; she should have conbusted instantaneously.
Consider the legend that the Dawn Sword was made of stuff that fell from the sky. By it's qualities, ice stuff. What if this object could also be used to draw on not only the fountain of ice; but the fountain of fire; combined using ancient royal blood? It could be a weapon of mass destruction; something that could be thrust into the Wall to channel all that magic and destroy it.
To make the connections to the fountain heads; the sword has to first be forged in a heart of (ice) water, the golden heart. and the firey heart.
Recall that when Brans sees the golden man, the 3-eyed crow pushes that vision away telling him that he doesn't need it now.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Mar 24, 2016 19:30:24 GMT
I suspect that the ruby is a piece of the fountain of the drunken god or made of the same stuff. Black rock that fell from the sky when the comet hit the ice moon; if you have been following Lucifer means Lightbringers essays. The ruby is a fragment of the meteorite that produced the Bloodgem that now belongs to Ulysses Bloodstone...all once connected to the Lifestone Tree, along with its 6 sibling fragments that went to the guardian beings Sphinx, Moonstone, Basilisk, Blue Diamond, Man-Wolf, and Dr. Spectrum. Have I posted this essay/findings yet?
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Post by min on Mar 24, 2016 19:33:13 GMT
I followed the astronomy bits concerning comets smashing into moons and dragons falling to the earth. I'm not sure about that other stuff.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Mar 24, 2016 19:36:36 GMT
LOL...no worries, this is actually all the Marvel stuff that is my current specialty. I have a whole forum dedicated to stuff like the above that shows how GRRM has "borrowed heavily" from the old comic arcs. The Bloodgem/Bloodstone thing was something I stumbled on a while back....I showed LmL but he wasn't amused.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 24, 2016 19:39:09 GMT
Consider Mel's ruby. It pulses in time with her heart and it's located at her throat. She thinks about the pain of the fire within but that she has no choice but to drink it down. Then consider Mance's glamor and the ruby at his wrist slaved to her own ruby. He says he can feel it burning as well. When she breaks the glamor; the ruby turns black. Ergo a ruby is not a ruby; but a piece of black rock. I suspect that the ruby is a piece of the fountain of the drunken god or made of the same stuff. Black rock that fell from the sky when the comet hit the ice moon; if you have been following Lucifer means Lightbringers essays. The wellspring of fire magic contained within the Great Temple of R'hllor surrounded by a 1000 Firey Hands. Not unlike Bran's vision at the top of the world of the icy spears. This would be my guess for the wellspring of ice. I think that Mel accesses the fountain continuously through the ruby at her throat and that she can draw on it. She does this when she burns rattleshirt and maintains glamors on Stannis' sword, rattleshirt and I suspect the horn as well. But it almost gets away from her. If Jon hadn't killed rattleshirt; she should have conbusted instantaneously. Consider the legend that the Dawn Sword was made of stuff that fell from the sky. By it's qualities, ice stuff. What if this object could also be used to draw on not only the fountain of ice; but the fountain of fire; combined using ancient royal blood? It could be a weapon of mass destruction; something that could be thrust into the Wall to channel all that magic and destroy it. To make the connections to the fountain heads; the sword has to first be forged in a heart of (ice) water, the golden heart. and the firey heart. Recall that when Brans sees the golden man, the 3-eyed crow pushes that vision away telling him that he doesn't need it now. I didn't recall the part about Mance's ruby turning black, but even so, that doesn't surprise me. Black is consistently connected to fire throughout the books. I didn't understand why you thought Melisandre would've instantaneously combusted if she is already consumed with fire? Since the story is of two elements, ice and fire, I am expecting two swords made from the comet. One black that soaks up all light and blood and burns with a fiery flame, and one white that reflects the light... Some Pig No Doubt suggested that Dawn could be made of a diamond-like substance. Each sword was forged to defeat the opposing element. It is thought provoking to think about which sword could be used to thrust into the Wall to destroy it, because even though it's made of ice and blood, was ice magic used to create it or was fire magic used? It seems a conflict to have used ice magic to contain ice magic. It reminds me of homeopathic medicine where the idea is that "like" cures "like". I assumed the golden man in Bran's vision was Jaime and the crow didn't want Bran to remember something that he was afraid of, but if Bran purposely inserted himself into the tower in order to change the future, he in affect is at fault for his own fall. Maybe that is what the crow thinks should remain hidden for now?
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 24, 2016 19:40:05 GMT
Have I posted this essay/findings yet? I don't believe so.
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Post by min on Mar 24, 2016 19:53:35 GMT
LOL...no worries, this is actually all the Marvel stuff that is my current specialty. I have a whole forum dedicated to stuff like the above that shows how GRRM has "borrowed heavily" from the old comic arcs. The Bloodgem/Bloodstone thing was something I stumbled on a while back....I showed LmL but he wasn't amused. Really! That came out of the Marvel comics? There's a lot I don't know about or understand. LOL!
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Post by min on Mar 24, 2016 20:09:14 GMT
I didn't understand why you thought Melisandre would've instantaneously combusted if she is already consumed with fire? I assumed the golden man in Bran's vision was Jaime and the crow didn't want Bran to remember something that he was afraid of, but if Bran purposely inserted himself into the tower in order to change the future, he in affect is at fault for his own fall. Maybe that is what the crow thinks should remain hidden for now? Mel says it herself. I think it's in the Melisandre chapter. Yes, I think it's Jaime and that the crow doesn't want Bran to know what part the golden hand will play right now. According to the famous quote; the others can make beautiful, fantastical stuff. A diamond sword would be something. Whatever is at the top of the world, it generates it's own curtain of light.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 24, 2016 20:12:08 GMT
I didn't understand why you thought Melisandre would've instantaneously combusted if she is already consumed with fire? I assumed the golden man in Bran's vision was Jaime and the crow didn't want Bran to remember something that he was afraid of, but if Bran purposely inserted himself into the tower in order to change the future, he in affect is at fault for his own fall. Maybe that is what the crow thinks should remain hidden for now? Mel says it herself. I think it's in the Melisandre chapter. Yes, I think it's Jaime and that the crow doesn't want Bran to know what part the golden hand will play right now. According to the famous quote; the others can make beautiful, fantastical stuff. A diamond sword would be something. Whatever is at the top of the world, it generates it's own curtain of light. Maybe a big chunk of meteor with diamond reflecting the light like the aurora borealis?
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