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Post by ac on Apr 17, 2016 19:51:32 GMT
If the CotF are "singers" then singers need songs. Songs like one about "Ice and Fire", probably. Meaning these "songs" are an oral history of events, battles, etc. So this means to me that there were other "songs" such as a song of Earth and Water (the Hammer of the the Waters), or even a song of Water and Fire (when the Rhoyne rose up against the Valyrians). Just some thoughts that I throw around occasionally. I struggle with being on board with GRRM using metaphors to fill in every blank. i.e. Rhaegar's "lance", or Lightbringer not being a sword, so I don't know where to draw the line. I think it is true that songs in the modern sense most likely translate as stories. But in terms of the Singers and ancient times songs could easily be translated and magic. With regards the use of metaphors to fill in the blanks, I feel that is much more likely when referencing the ancient / pre-Andal times. Before the Andals arrived in Westeros there was no system of writing and so metaphor and stories would have been the standard way of passing information from one generation to the next in a memorable way (Old Nan is still telling them!). After the Andals conquest, and with a system of writing in place, everything could be documented in detail (albeit with a certain amount of bias) and metaphors and stories would be less useful. Edit to add: I also should say that I think all of this is only necessary for people trying to figure out what will happen with 2 (or possibly more) books remaining. GRRM will surely need to be explicit when it comes to tieing everything together. Afterall most people will read each books once and put very little thought into it!
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Post by ac on Apr 17, 2016 19:52:39 GMT
Yeah I think it was because I started by clicking the button to quote the whole post and then couldn't add others in. But thanks I'll stick to Quick Quotes when I need to add multiple in one post. You can select multiple quotes with the little gear on each one. Select as many as you like (it'll turn the gear box blue) and then hit the Quote button. It'll open up the Reply box with all the posts you picked in the post already. Then you can delete or highlight whatever you want to respond to. Perfect, thanks.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 17, 2016 20:06:59 GMT
Re the Others being like First Men versions of the Boltons, I understand where you are coming from but I think at most these "evil" First Men would be a minority and I don't think it would be necessary to essentially extinguish the entire race as you propose. I didn't propose that, or at least that's not what I meant to suggest. The FM that continued to break or disregard the pact would be a minority, just like the Boltons are today. I was thinking the Greenseers in the trees took them over in order to stop the killing and it may have escalated. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When Bran is in Summer, he does not have total control over him. He kind of rides his consciousness. He can get Summer to do certain things, as Jojen asked to do, to prove that Bran was inside Summer. So if the Greenseers (note - NOT the Children) took over these few FM, they wouldn't be total control over them because the men still have their free will. They can divert what the man is doing and probably to whom, but no skinchanger we've seen can control a beast/person entirely. Not even Varamyr. So if the Greenseers subverted the actions, not the bloodthirsty nature of the these FM, then we'd see men turning on their own. Exactly what the Boltons are doing today. They've not stopped what made their house a House, they've just subverted their actions so that their over lord doesn't know about it. These actions, facts, whatever you want to call them, match quite well with what the Others do, according to Old Nan. Do they match what we've seen of them? Well, that depends on how you view the Others. Are they psychotic killers, or do they have a game plan. Either way, those motivations are as close to human motivations as anything we've seen in the books. And as codicil do this, I'll add that I'm not entirely sold on this theory. It was something that came up while Mel and I were talking about one of her inversion chapters. But the more I think about it the more I like it. But anyway, regardless of that I think we can progress the "3 swords theory" without agreeing on who started it. I like Ser Duncan 's quote about magic being a sword without a hilt. Absolutely. I like the reference to the Lion of Night. That's a good catch.
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Post by ac on Apr 17, 2016 20:16:48 GMT
I didn't propose that, or at least that's not what I meant to suggest. This is my bad quoting skills coming back to haunt me! I was referring to Melifeather's theory that the CotF destroyed the majority of FM and then actually signed the Pact with the Andals when they arrived. I'm much more open to the theory as you outline it.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 17, 2016 20:43:12 GMT
reference to Lion of Night, a god in Yi Ti. The Faceless men believe the Lion of Night is another representation of the Many-Faced God Well we know the Many-Faced God is "death"...all men must die and all that, so the Lion of Night being "death" seems like it could be tied in with fighting back. The Children tried fighting back and killing the invaders themselves.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 17, 2016 20:46:54 GMT
I didn't propose that, or at least that's not what I meant to suggest. This is my bad quoting skills coming back to haunt me! I was referring to Melifeather 's theory that the CotF destroyed the majority of FM and then actually signed the Pact with the Andals when they arrived. I'm much more open to the theory as you outline it. I think the story of the Long Night is supposed to echo the Biblical story of extermination...the flood of Noah's Arc. Supposedly only Noah and his family survived while the rest of mankind perished. It's a "do-over". So, yeah, I think it was like that. The Children tried slaying the invaders two times before they pulled out the big guns and did one giant do-over.
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Post by ac on Apr 17, 2016 22:07:00 GMT
reference to Lion of Night, a god in Yi Ti. The Faceless men believe the Lion of Night is another representation of the Many-Faced God Well we know the Many-Faced God is "death"...all men must die and all that, so the Lion of Night being "death" seems like it could be tied in with fighting back. The Children tried fighting back and killing the invaders themselves. According to how we have interpreted the legend of Azor Ahai here it has to represent fighting back but I wonder what they did - because it didn't work. I'm not sure it is simply fighting in open battle. I was looking more at the Lion of Night, Faceless Men and House of Black and White and came across a couple of interesting notes which may or may not be relevant. The door of the House of Black and White is half weirwood (white) and half ebony (black). Representative of good (weirwood) and evil (ebony)? Inside of the House of Black and White the statue of the Lion of Night is sitting on an throne carved from ebony. Could we consider this to symbolise that the Lion of Night is the king / leader of evil (Others)? According to Yi Ti legend: during the long night the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of man (again taking from the wiki so not the exact text) In this sense the Lion in the legend of Azor Ahai could by symbolic of the leader of the Others or possibly even the source of the magic that created them. Whichever it is it could be to say that the First Men and CotF thought that by destroying the leader / power source the Others would be defeated. It didn't work. Once Pandora's box has been opened it's not so easily closed again. I think I've read some theories (although I don't remember details) where people believe that travelling deep into the North and destroying the source of the Other's power may be the way of defeating them. It's interesting that if this interpretation is correct then GRRM is telling us that it won't work.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 17, 2016 22:35:59 GMT
After they wiped out the Others and contained them north of the Wall, there weren't many humans living in Westeros. Maybe a few that had kept close to the Children during the Long Night. When the Andals arrived they brought their own religion, and I think the Children liked that, because then the Andals wouldn't be interested in working magic. In fact, I think they were anti-magic and did all they could to keep it out of the realm, at least south of the Neck. The Starks were in charge of keeping the north in line, even though they continued worshipping the old gods, they kept it respectful and anti-magic too. That's why the old Kings of Winter are warded in their crypts. That was an abuse of power again, so it had to be dealt with.
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