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Post by ac on Apr 16, 2016 16:53:18 GMT
First Men Heroes = CotF Greenseers Welcome ac! Can I ask you explain this one a bit. Do you mean the FM from the story of the Last Hero? And do they equal greenseers in abilities or do you mean they were the CotF's greenseers? You mean this wasn't perfectly clear ?! I think they were FM and equal (or at least similar) in ability to the CotF's greenseers. In so much as the Age of Heroes could be thought of as the Age When FM With Greenseer-like Abilities Were Relatively Common (I can't imagine why that wasn't used!). From that you can guess I also believe the Last Hero and his 12 companions all had the greenseer-like skills. One thing I always thought was strange was that the Age of Heroes straddled the Long Night. I've come to think that the Age of Heroes signifies the time when Human's adopted and embraced the Old Religion of the CotF i.e. from the signing of the Pact up until the arrival of the Andals and their destruction of the weirwood groves etc. In that light those people who had well developed greenseer abilities, or thought of another way gotten closer to the Gods, could definitely have been considered the heroes of that time.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 16, 2016 17:00:45 GMT
In that light those people who had well developed greenseer abilities, or thought of another way gotten closer to the Gods, could definitely have been considered the heroes of that time. So.. Age of Heroes = Age of "a whole lot of people with magical abilities"?
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Post by ac on Apr 16, 2016 17:13:32 GMT
In that light those people who had well developed greenseer abilities, or thought of another way gotten closer to the Gods, could definitely have been considered the heroes of that time. So.. Age of Heroes = Age of "a whole lot of people with magical abilities"? Yes, although I think specifically magical abilities of the CotF variety rather than Fire etc.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 16, 2016 17:28:28 GMT
I think they were FM and equal (or at least similar) in ability to the CotF's greenseers. In so much as the Age of Heroes could be thought of as the Age When FM With Greenseer-like Abilities Were Relatively Common (I can't imagine why that wasn't used!). From that you can guess I also believe the Last Hero and his 12 companions all had the greenseer-like skills. Well, see this is what I meant by you thinking your ideas were banal. ;P Not! Would this ability of the FM be inherent in them? If so, then it may have been one of the reasons the heart trees were cut down. Imagine you're used to communicating only with animals and their intellect, then suddenly you've got an intelligent and skilled skinchanger/greenseer breaking into your communications and disrupting the natural connections with their thoughts and ideas of what's right and wrong. Maybe even severing the communication between you and your beasts. I'd think that was a real threat to my way of being and I can see why the FM would then wage war on the CotF. But then the question turns to why did the FM loose the ability to do this? It seems, from the Winterfell crypts, that the Starks at least retained their skinchanging well past the Age of Heroes, if we take the statues to mean they did have wolves as partners. Mind you, we have no idea when the ability was lost, since it's now just tradition for the Lords to be buried within tombs that depict them with their wolves. In that light those people who had well developed greenseer abilities, or thought of another way gotten closer to the Gods, could definitely have been considered the heroes of that time. Or maybe they were considered heroes because they fought to keep their way of skinchanging? As we see in the books, not everyone believes in the same set of moral rules about skinhchanging. So what if the FM's way of using their talents was in complete opposition to the way the CotF used theirs? The heroes are then the men that forged the peace and made compromises with the greenseers, but did not allow the CotF to rule how they skinchanged. BTW I think this whole idea could be a thread in itself.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 16, 2016 17:30:12 GMT
One thing I always thought was strange was that the Age of Heroes straddled the Long Night. I've come to think that the Age of Heroes signifies the time when Human's adopted and embraced the Old Religion of the CotF i.e. from the signing of the Pact up until the arrival of the Andals and their destruction of the weirwood groves etc. In that light those people who had well developed greenseer abilities, or thought of another way gotten closer to the Gods, could definitely have been considered the heroes of that time. I would like to expand on this and say the Pact was an agreement that the humans were supposed to stop worshipping the old gods and adopt the Faith of the Seven. Too many humans were abusing the old gods by practicing magic, and the Andals were to discourage any practitioners of the old gods and convert them to the Faith of the Seven.
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Post by ac on Apr 16, 2016 17:47:08 GMT
I feel like I just had a run-in with the Gods. One minute I was in the Small Theories Thread and the next I was here !
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 16, 2016 18:30:38 GMT
I also believe the Last Hero and his 12 companions all had the greenseer-like skills. what sort of skills, do you think? Other than... greenseeing lol
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Post by ac on Apr 16, 2016 19:27:05 GMT
Would this ability of the FM be inherent in them? If so, then it may have been one of the reasons the heart trees were cut down. Imagine you're used to communicating only with animals and their intellect, then suddenly you've got an intelligent and skilled skinchanger/greenseer breaking into your communications and disrupting the natural connections with their thoughts and ideas of what's right and wrong. Maybe even severing the communication between you and your beasts. I'd think that was a real threat to my way of being and I can see why the FM would then wage war on the CotF. I had thought about it as the FM having the capability but not the knowledge until they'd learned from the CotF. But your perspective is an interesting alternative and the Garth Greenhand legend could be an ancient example of their innate abilities. I can't remember having seen anything about what the religion of the FM was before the Pact with the CotF and adopting the Old Gods. They just sensed they were being watched by the weirwoods and started freaking out and destroying them. It is interesting though that, given where the Pact was "signed" (Isle of Faces) and the widespread adoption of the Old Gods by the FM following the Pact, the FM obviously game to accept the beliefs of the CotF and the sacred nature of the weirwoods. I wonder what the tipping point was? But then the question turns to why did the FM loose the ability to do this? It seems, from the Winterfell crypts, that the Starks at least retained their skinchanging well past the Age of Heroes, if we take the statues to mean they did have wolves as partners. Mind you, we have no idea when the ability was lost, since it's now just tradition for the Lords to be buried within tombs that depict them with their wolves. One thing is that I don't think that all the FM had the ability just that it was way more widespread than it is today. The biggest reason I would guess is that the war with the Andals was a religious war of the Old Gods vs The Seven. Taking 6 of the 7 kingdoms, with the North being the only holdout, tells us that the Andals got by far the best of it. We know that the Andals destroyed the majority of the weirwoods south of The Neck as well as killing many CotF and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that they also killed significant Heroes (as I define them). It is also assumed that war with the Andals was responsible for driving the majority of the, now severely reduced, CotF population north of the Wall and into hiding. So we are left with a Kingdom dominated by the religion of The Seven, a significant reduction in the main symbols of the Old Religion (weirwoods and Heroes) and extremely rare if any contact with the CotF. These factors, combined with the fact the FM had no writing system to record knowledge could easily have led to the situation we see today. One other possibility is that the dilution of the FM bloodline by interbreeding with the Andals (and others) has made the ability less prominent in more recent generations. Or maybe they were considered heroes because they fought to keep their way of skinchanging? As we see in the books, not everyone believes in the same set of moral rules about skinhchanging. So what if the FM's way of using their talents was in complete opposition to the way the CotF used theirs? The heroes are then the men that forged the peace and made compromises with the greenseers, but did not allow the CotF to rule how they skinchanged. Certainly could be. Although I am leaning towards thinking the peace was based on the FM coming round to the CotF's view of the Old Gods.
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Post by ac on Apr 16, 2016 19:30:23 GMT
I also believe the Last Hero and his 12 companions all had the greenseer-like skills. what sort of skills, do you think? Other than... greenseeing lol Haha, touché. Well I am not sure they had all the powers of the CotF greenseers. For instance could they summon the Hammer of Waters or something similar?
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Post by ac on Apr 16, 2016 19:35:06 GMT
One thing I always thought was strange was that the Age of Heroes straddled the Long Night. I've come to think that the Age of Heroes signifies the time when Human's adopted and embraced the Old Religion of the CotF i.e. from the signing of the Pact up until the arrival of the Andals and their destruction of the weirwood groves etc. In that light those people who had well developed greenseer abilities, or thought of another way gotten closer to the Gods, could definitely have been considered the heroes of that time. I would like to expand on this and say the Pact was an agreement that the humans were supposed to stop worshipping the old gods and adopt the Faith of the Seven. Too many humans were abusing the old gods by practicing magic, and the Andals were to discourage any practitioners of the old gods and convert them to the Faith of the Seven. Was there a Pact between the FM and the Andals? I got the impression it was basically a stalemate because they couldn't get past the Neck. The Andal conquest was certainly a religious war though, and The Seven won.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 16, 2016 20:00:31 GMT
I would like to expand on this and say the Pact was an agreement that the humans were supposed to stop worshipping the old gods and adopt the Faith of the Seven. Too many humans were abusing the old gods by practicing magic, and the Andals were to discourage any practitioners of the old gods and convert them to the Faith of the Seven. Was there a Pact between the FM and the Andals? I got the impression it was basically a stalemate because they couldn't get past the Neck. The Andal conquest was certainly a religious war though, and The Seven won. I think most of the First Men were killed by moon-meteors. The First Men abused their knowledge of the old gods by practicing ice magic. The Children turned to fire magic to destroy them. When the Anals arrived there were very few living First Men, so I believe the Andals were the ones that signed the Pact.
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Post by ac on Apr 16, 2016 20:09:53 GMT
Was there a Pact between the FM and the Andals? I got the impression it was basically a stalemate because they couldn't get past the Neck. The Andal conquest was certainly a religious war though, and The Seven won. I think most of the First Men were killed by moon-meteors. The First Men abused their knowledge of the old gods by practicing ice magic. The Children turned to fire magic to destroy them. When the Anals arrived there were very few living First Men, so I believe the Andals were the ones that signed the Pact. I'm going to assume you are not messing with me, in which case surely you've written about this somewhere?
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 16, 2016 20:32:16 GMT
I think most of the First Men were killed by moon-meteors. The First Men abused their knowledge of the old gods by practicing ice magic. The Children turned to fire magic to destroy them. When the Anals arrived there were very few living First Men, so I believe the Andals were the ones that signed the Pact. I'm going to assume you are not messing with me, in which case surely you've written about this somewhere? I suppose I shouldn't condense my thoughts when you're new to the discussion! Did you read this post: OP on origin of Others And this one: Old Nan's tales are about the Children
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Post by ac on Apr 16, 2016 20:49:45 GMT
Thanks. Think it's time to crack open a beer or two and get reading!
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Post by ac on Apr 17, 2016 3:24:16 GMT
OK, now I see what you are saying. Not sure I'm ready to agree, but I see what you're saying . Anything you can point me at that might show evidence that the CotF were/are capable of using fire magic? Given their reverence for weirwoods and all things foresty I'd assume that would be the last thing they'd be messing around with!
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