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Post by Weasel Pie on May 15, 2016 18:29:55 GMT
Drinking from the fountain of the drunken god? A cup of life and a cup of death? Drink from a cup of fire, drink from a cup of ice? What did Arya choose when she drank the poisoned cup. Same with Meilsandre when she drank Cressen's poison cup? Didn't they both choose the death of their identity? ETA: Is this why Melisandre says that dreams are the little death because she remembers who she was as a girl? Melony, lot 9. You bring up a good point, because The Undying should be added to the list. They drink Shade of the Evening, made from the blue leaves of the trees that grow in that area. And in the pool in the House of the Undying, the liquid is red. Is it possibly made from weirleaves? ETA I had a whole thing written up about the two drinks - the red and the blue, and what it might mean that they're both from trees. Inversions anyone??
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 15, 2016 18:31:00 GMT
Ok that's great because there was something I wanted to bring about No. 6... When Mel does the ritual funereal rites on Jon's body, we have to assume this is what Thoros did to Beric. At the very least Thoros would've had to have said the same prayer the all Red lot use in their final rites for the dead. So, if it's just the power of the words, like casting a spell, then why does Beric say he awoke with the taste of ashes in his mouth? Did the mummers show leave out the part where the priest/ess kisses the corpse? I thought Thoros actually kissed Beric as part of the ritual, like a final good bye. (in the book) Thoro says he gave Beric the "fiery kiss" and blew fire down his throat. And when Beric rose Catelyn he gave her the kiss as well. Melisandre never gave Jon the fiery kiss, that is why I don't believe she was responsible for raising him.
I'm beginning to the think you're right on that. There's always the possibility that the land itself is responsible for the return of the dead.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 15, 2016 18:36:06 GMT
Would it be easier to give a spoiler warning in the thread topic? Yes, I think you're right Min. I'm going to put a warning on the title and let's just spoiler tag big stuff that happened on the show. The minor stuff, like Arya drinking from the cup of death would have to be spoilered too, and it's getting tedious, so I'll just warn everyone with the title, like I did for Some Pig's thread.
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Post by min on May 15, 2016 18:59:17 GMT
Drinking from the fountain of the drunken god? A cup of life and a cup of death? Drink from a cup of fire, drink from a cup of ice? What did Arya choose when she drank the poisoned cup. Same with Meilsandre when she drank Cressen's poison cup? Didn't they both choose the death of their identity? ETA: Is this why Melisandre says that dreams are the little death because she remembers who she was as a girl? Melony, lot 9. You bring up a good point, because The Undying should be added to the list. They drink Shade of the Evening, made from the blue leaves of the trees that grow in that area. And in the pool in the House of the Undying, the liquid is red. Is it possibly made from weirleaves? ETA I had a whole thing written up about the two drinks - the red and the blue, and what it might mean that they're both from trees. Inversions anyone?? Is Melisandre really dead? She can consume food and drink but doesn't need to. She thinks her throat is parched and asks for water and she feels tired after her nightly vigil. She falls asleep. Do dead people do that? She says R'hllor sustains her. Does Thoros eat and drink as well? I'm starting to think that the HoB&W controls both the cup of life (R'hllor) and the cup of death (the great Other). There is a quote I've been looking for but haven't found yet. Melisandre says that R'hllor has claws. At first, I thought this was allusion to a dragon; but then we have the Reader with long overgrown fingernails IIRC and also Aerys. I think she means it literally. It's the idea of the death of identity; something that happens if you come back from the dead. When H'Gar (R'hllor... hmmm) finds Arya chastising the gods at the Harrenhall weirwood; he warns her that R'hllor will hear and does not liked to be mocked. I don't think the gods are showing up; but I now question who and what R'hllor really is. I question whether the doors on the HoB&W are weirwood and ebony; or weirwood and shade of the evening.
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Post by Melifeather on May 15, 2016 19:02:28 GMT
Wights have no humanity in them at all, but while they do retain some small memories of who they were, they cannot stay animated without the cold wind resuscitating them. I think the cold and the reanimation are two different things. There is something about Westeros that allows for the reanimation of bodies and the Cold is taking advantage of that. I think your work on the Drowned Man chapter goes a long way in explaining why bodies can be brought back from the dead. The Cold then takes over the wights and uses them for the Others' own end. The fact the hand Thorne takes to King's Landing and the arm that Summer eats are still animated shows it's not the Blue in their eyes that's causing the bodies to come back. They are coming back due to something else that the Others are using. Possibly it's a spell that is cast and carried in the wind, or there is something in the very earth of Westeros that causes nature to reject the spirits of the dead into the rocks, rivers etc. and they return to their bodies. Coldhands could be a product of this, but was outside the reach of the Cold, since he's not controlled like the other wights. I think it all goes back to the oral story of Elenei, daughter of two gods: the god of the sea and the goddess of the wind. The gods were angry because Elenei chose a mortal existence in order to marry the first Storm Lord. To me this story is a symbolic telling of how magic used to be free throughout Westeros, but was contained and warded for the benefit of humans. The Children stole "Elenei" and warded it, closing the hinge on magic. That's why I think the hinge has been reopened and magic has been released, and that's why dragons hatched, direwolves reconnected with the Starks, and the dead can now be resurrected.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 15, 2016 19:05:05 GMT
weirwood and shade of the evening. absolutely! The black wood of the trees that they take the blue leaves from. Parallel (inversion!) to the white wood and red leaves. Obvs Bran and Dany have similar experiences ingesting them.
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Post by Melifeather on May 15, 2016 19:05:16 GMT
I question whether the doors on the HoB&W are weirwood and ebony; or weirwood and shade of the evening. I think I recall someone wondering what the other tree was, the inversion to the weirwood and I thought the consensus was that it was the yronwood.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 15, 2016 19:06:21 GMT
The House of the Undying is a grey and ancient ruin. It is long and low, without towers or windows and is coiled like a stone serpent through a grove of black-barked trees with inky blue leaves which are used to make the drink that the Qartheen call "shade of the evening".
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Post by min on May 15, 2016 19:33:49 GMT
The House of the Undying is a grey and ancient ruin. It is long and low, without towers or windows and is coiled like a stone serpent through a grove of black-barked trees with inky blue leaves which are used to make the drink that the Qartheen call "shade of the evening". A bit of a misdirection I should think. Ebony is also a color, a shade of black. Hence, shade of the evening. Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. The were fashioned of ebony and weirwod, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 15, 2016 19:36:21 GMT
shouldn't this thread be over in the show section? ETA nevermind, the spoiler confused me
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Post by Melifeather on May 15, 2016 19:38:27 GMT
Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. The were fashioned of ebony and weirwod, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. OOH, that part is pretty cool! The swirling and the blending...an indication that the magic is from one source, but the way it's conjured is different?
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Post by min on May 15, 2016 19:44:07 GMT
Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. The were fashioned of ebony and weirwod, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. OOH, that part is pretty cool! The swirling and the blending...an indication that the magic is from one source, but the way it's conjured is different? And again the notion that magic is woven and stitched together, interwoven.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 15, 2016 19:50:10 GMT
The were fashioned of ebony and weirwod, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. Not for nothing but I know a bit about patterns/textile making, and this should be obvious to everyone. A black weft and a white warp would look grey in the end. Logic really. But my point is that Dany only breaks the spell of the HotU by choosing the grey door.
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Post by Melifeather on May 15, 2016 20:17:39 GMT
The House of the Undying is a grey and ancient ruin. It is long and low, without towers or windows and is coiled like a stone serpent through a grove of black-barked trees with inky blue leaves which are used to make the drink that the Qartheen call "shade of the evening". A bit of a misdirection I should think. Ebony is also a color, a shade of black. Hence, shade of the evening. Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. The were fashioned of ebony and weirwod, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. Or fire magic being contained with ice magic? One magic countering the other?
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Post by Melifeather on May 15, 2016 20:23:40 GMT
I think the cold and the reanimation are two different things. There is something about Westeros that allows for the reanimation of bodies and the Cold is taking advantage of that. I think your work on the Drowned Man chapter goes a long way in explaining why bodies can be brought back from the dead. The Cold then takes over the wights and uses them for the Others' own end. The fact the hand Thorne takes to King's Landing and the arm that Summer eats are still animated shows it's not the Blue in their eyes that's causing the bodies to come back. They are coming back due to something else that the Others are using. Possibly it's a spell that is cast and carried in the wind, or there is something in the very earth of Westeros that causes nature to reject the spirits of the dead into the rocks, rivers etc. and they return to their bodies. Coldhands could be a product of this, but was outside the reach of the Cold, since he's not controlled like the other wights. I think it all goes back to the oral story of Elenei, daughter of two gods: the god of the sea and the goddess of the wind. The gods were angry because Elenei chose a mortal existence in order to marry the first Storm Lord. To me this story is a symbolic telling of how magic used to be free throughout Westeros, but was contained and warded for the benefit of humans. The Children stole "Elenei" and warded it, closing the hinge on magic. That's why I think the hinge has been reopened and magic has been released, and that's why dragons hatched, direwolves reconnected with the Starks, and the dead can now be resurrected. It just occurred to me that if my theory about Robert taking Lyanna is true, then the Storm Lord got his revenge on "ice magic" now that "Elenei" has been returned to the gods. Heh
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