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Post by Melifeather on Sept 14, 2017 17:07:41 GMT
Yea, incest, child sacrifice, cannabilism. George can get pretty dark. Which makes me wonder how so many people can read these books and come to the conclusion that it's about a doomed love affair and ultimately Jon is going to be crowned King of the land, and everything will end happily with a land united by a benign dragon king. I think GRRMs goal is to achieve moral ambiguity. The heroes do really bad things, and the villans do heroic things. Even though I don't believe Rhaegar kidnapped and married Lyanna I think GRRM was successful in making fans be OK with incest between Jon and Dany, because they like the characters. Also, did someone already mention the possibility of Rhaegar himself being a "child of three", via the funky goings-on at Summerhall? A child was going to be a sacrificial lamb there, I'm sure of it...what I'm not sure of is which child it was - or if there was more than one. Thanks for reminding me that if Lyanna was imprenated by two fathers at the same time that her sister parallel Ashara would have been too. Or does Bael tell the Winterfell story and Dany tell the Summerhall story? Nice balance there - of course Summerhall is the inversion of Winterfell? I've always felt the mirrored reflection of Winterfell is Starfall to go along with the black and white knights/shields. Summerhall has parallels with the tower of joy and Mirri's tent revival.
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Post by stdaga on Sept 21, 2017 1:19:50 GMT
I came to check out this thread because of freyfamilyreunion , and I find myself very interested. I have never posted here, but I creep around a bit. I hope you don't mind if I crash your party? Perhaps this goes back to the practice of First Right as well. We're never told whether or not First Right is practiced when it is the marriage of the Lord's own daughter. You have just blown my mind! When Arya was born, the boys were around 5-6, just the right age to be building snow walls (heh) that collapse on a fat man. What if Arya's birth is the reason Mance and Qorgyle went to Winterfell? What if the reason that Mance/Abel went to Winterfell to rescue Arya (he doesn't know she is fake) because Arya was promised to someone north of the wall years ago? He can't risk letting her be the wife of another? I'm reminded of an old thread I made somewhere about what Child of Three means, and I figure that it means one of the parents was either a skinchanger or being skinchanged. Intriguing idea. I need to spend more time here. While Rhaegar superficially fits the role of Bael, since both sang and handed out blue roses, Rhaegar doesn't fit it in one very important sense. Rhaegar was never given guest rights with the Starks. He was never invited to their table as Bael was. Howland however, was invited to sit at the Stark's table during the Harrenhal tourney. He was also in a position to cultivate a relationship with Lyanna, Rhaegar was never in such a position. Lyanna also disappeared around the God's Eye, a location very tied into Howland Reed and the Green Men. So could Lyanna's twin children be Jon, born of Lyanna and Brandon, and Meera, born of Lyanna and Howland?? A Stark and a Reed leave the toj with a Stark baby and a Reed baby. The only two survivor's each have a child of their own to raise. So does this make Jyana Reed a completely made up person? But explain the similarity to Lyanna's name? Did Lyanna want Ned to kill the product of her abomination? The result of her affair with Brandon? Or could you read it another way, she wanted Ned to take Jon in? Eat the bastard? Legitimize him and make him part of Winterfell? Don't care if you choke on him. No matter how it affects Ned and his family, Jon is the rightful heir of Winterfell, the only son, of the first born son of Lord Rickard. Either option would give Ned a reason to feel like he didn't keep a promise, but I still feel that Ned did keep his promise to Lyanna. "He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them." AGOT-Eddard IX Or, he thinks he did??? Hmm! I had initially thought Ned was skinchanging Howland or Howland was "riding" inside Ned, but now I agree that Lyanna was somehow involved. No doubt in my mind that the old gods helped Howland win. In regards to the KOTLT, or in planting a baby (babies) inside of Lyanna? I favor Ned for Starkcest more than Brandon. Also, it's a tough old world over at Westeros. In my experience, thinking outside of the box is not usually very welcome over there. I have felt the burn. The only other way I can think of Ashara having twins is if Edric Dayne is Dany's twin. I might have missed previous discussion on ages, but wouldn't Edric Dayne be too young to be Dany's twin? Must it be a girl/boy set of twins or could Allyria Dayne be an option for Dany's twin? Is Aegon/Young Griff too old? One set of twins raised in Westeros and the other set of twins raised in Essos. I think GRRMs goal is to achieve moral ambiguity. The heroes do really bad things, and the villans do heroic things. Whether he has succeeded with most of his readers, I can't say, but he has me sold on a new way of looking at the actions of these characters and this world he created.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 21, 2017 2:24:36 GMT
I came to check out this thread because of freyfamilyreunion , and I find myself very interested. I have never posted here, but I creep around a bit. I hope you don't mind if I crash your party? Welcome! Creep away! We are a very small crowd here but have many big ideas, as you can see. By all means, dive in. I for one am excited to see you here, being as I was inspired by some of your posts at Westeros about the Fisherman's Daughter - I expounded on them HERE if you would like to have a look. Would love to hear your thoughts on that!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 21, 2017 14:09:35 GMT
I came to check out this thread because of freyfamilyreunion , and I find myself very interested. I have never posted here, but I creep around a bit. I hope you don't mind if I crash your party? Crash away, new eyes and ideas always welcome What if the reason that Mance/Abel went to Winterfell to rescue Arya (he doesn't know she is fake) because Arya was promised to someone north of the wall years ago? He can't risk letting her be the wife of another? What if she was promised to the King Beyond the Wall? Either because she was needed for a special purpose or for marriage. I've always loved the idea of Mance being Jon's father, the show mangled his character of course, it would be an exact parallel to Bael. Jon of course would be doomed to kill Mance, not knowing it was his dad. I would obviously be on board too with the Others needing human women to create terrible half-human monsters with. Since GoT Chapter One mentions both the chimera eugenics rumors AND Mance Rayder right in the second paragraph, and since both scenarios fit Jon having "more of the North in him" I find it hard to shake the idea. I need to spend more time here. You do lol I'm starting to learn towards Rickardcest if Starkcest turns out to be true. We've got plenty of sister-wives in the story, but the only example of daughter-wives comes from... the North, from Craster, who is definitely a Stark relative.
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Post by stdaga on Sept 21, 2017 14:34:46 GMT
Welcome! Creep away! We are a very small crowd here but have many big ideas, as you can see. By all means, dive in. I for one am excited to see you here, being as I was inspired by some of your posts at Westeros about the Fisherman's Daughter - I expounded on them HERE if you would like to have a look. Would love to hear your thoughts on that! Thank you! Yes, I had seen those comments from my W post about The Merry Midwife and the Sloe-Eyed Maid sometime back. I was rather flattered. I go through spurts over there, but I see some heavy symbolism in those Davos chapters in Dance, and that little tirad was all inspired by someone stating those Davos chapters contained no useful information and are a waste of space in the books! Really? Inspiration comes in funny ways. Glad I could help. You took it to an amazing level!
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Post by stdaga on Sept 21, 2017 15:20:18 GMT
What if she was promised to the King Beyond the Wall? Either because she was needed for a special purpose or for marriage. Arya certainly fit's the idea of a wildling lifestyle way more than a typical Westerosi woman lifestyle. It would be a good fit for her. Maybe this idea of a king beyond the wall or a king at the wall, fit's the Neddard's comments about Arya marrying a king! Although the rest of Ned's statement to Arya fit's a more typical "southron" type life style. I would obviously be on board too with the Others needing human women to create terrible half-human monsters with. We get that information early in the books, as well. Ahh, Old Nan! She is telling us important stuff and we need to pay attention! Since GoT Chapter One mentions both the chimera eugenics rumors AND Mance Rayder right in the second paragraph, and since both scenarios fit Jon having "more of the North in him" I find it hard to shake the idea. Yes, Mance is introduced to us early, and with some importance. We get Mance's name before we get Ned's, or even the Stark name. Mance does share some qualities with Jon, as I was just discussing over at Last Hearth, and he is very important in Jon's are and development, so the idea that Mance is his father is intriguing. Also, it then has Jon actively saving his infant brother from Mel's fires, even though he doesn't know it's his brother. I also wonder if Mance could share some Stark blood? Mance and Jon are somewhat similar in body type and some coloring, but this could also related to Ned and Arya (probably Lyanna). It would not be the first time that a Stark Lord in Winterfell shared blood with a King-beyond-the-wall, usually a bastard of the family seems to be floating north of the wall. Could Rickard have planted a seed there in his past? Or was it Lyarra? Does Benjen know and that is why he might be sharing information with Mance? Why are all these Stark bastards either at the wall, or beyond it? Ned doesn't fear Mance, just says he needs to deal with him once and for all. Maybe that is to deliver his bride, if that is Arya's destiny? And if Mance shares Stark blood, then it still includes Starkcest, and that is an idea I can't shake. It just stirs up all my gut feelings. Maybe this idea of Mance sharing some Stark blood has been discussed somewhere before (I am sure it has, everything seems to have been discussed before, it's just a matter of finding the information) but I had never really thought about it until these last couple days. Just spit-balling as idea's bounce around in my head. I've always loved the idea of Mance being Jon's father, the show mangled his character of course, it would be an exact parallel to Bael. Jon of course would be doomed to kill Mance, not knowing it was his dad. Well, I think there is more to the Bael tale that we have not been told, which is the idea of incest. So, that could make the Stark Lord the father, or Bael, if he has Stark blood. I think either is a valid option. I am leaning more toward the idea of sibling incest, but we are given the story of Craster for a reason. Now, I speculate that at one time, Craster's first wives might have been his sisters, and then eventually his daughters, which is upping the ante in the "blood" department. But Craster with sister-wives is pure speculation on my part, and I can find no support in the text. One thing we don't hear about with the Targaryens is father-daughter incest, although I think it is hinted at with Aegon the Unworthy and Jeyne Lothston, who was rumored to be his daughter by Falena Stokeworth. Maybe there is more father-daughter incest than we are aware of. Crash away, new eyes and ideas always welcome Thanks. I am a fan of wild speculation and I like to play. Most of mine amounts to nothing, but every now and then, I feel like I hit a bulls eye. And it's fun!
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 21, 2017 17:43:12 GMT
I came to check out this thread because of freyfamilyreunion , and I find myself very interested. I have never posted here, but I creep around a bit. I hope you don't mind if I crash your party? Any friend of FFR is a friend of ours! Welcome!Perhaps this goes back to the practice of First Right as well. We're never told whether or not First Right is practiced when it is the marriage of the Lord's own daughter. You have just blown my mind! When Arya was born, the boys were around 5-6, just the right age to be building snow walls (heh) that collapse on a fat man. What if Arya's birth is the reason Mance and Qorgyle went to Winterfell? What if the reason that Mance/Abel went to Winterfell to rescue Arya (he doesn't know she is fake) because Arya was promised to someone north of the wall years ago? He can't risk letting her be the wife of another? I'm reminded of an old thread I made somewhere about what Child of Three means, and I figure that it means one of the parents was either a skinchanger or being skinchanged. Intriguing idea. I need to spend more time here. We are the forum model of improvisation. The first rule of improv is "yes, and" - that is our attitude here. We treat each others ideas and theories as "yes, and here's supporting evidence, or supporting idea...".While Rhaegar superficially fits the role of Bael, since both sang and handed out blue roses, Rhaegar doesn't fit it in one very important sense. Rhaegar was never given guest rights with the Starks. He was never invited to their table as Bael was. Howland however, was invited to sit at the Stark's table during the Harrenhal tourney. He was also in a position to cultivate a relationship with Lyanna, Rhaegar was never in such a position. Lyanna also disappeared around the God's Eye, a location very tied into Howland Reed and the Green Men. So could Lyanna's twin children be Jon, born of Lyanna and Brandon, and Meera, born of Lyanna and Howland?? A Stark and a Reed leave the toj with a Stark baby and a Reed baby. The only two survivor's each have a child of their own to raise. So does this make Jyana Reed a completely made up person? But explain the similarity to Lyanna's name? Jyanna does look and sound like Lyanna - it is fishy!Did Lyanna want Ned to kill the product of her abomination? The result of her affair with Brandon? Or could you read it another way, she wanted Ned to take Jon in? Eat the bastard? Legitimize him and make him part of Winterfell? Don't care if you choke on him. No matter how it affects Ned and his family, Jon is the rightful heir of Winterfell, the only son, of the first born son of Lord Rickard. Either option would give Ned a reason to feel like he didn't keep a promise, but I still feel that Ned did keep his promise to Lyanna. "He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them." AGOT-Eddard IX Or, he thinks he did??? Hmm! I had initially thought Ned was skinchanging Howland or Howland was "riding" inside Ned, but now I agree that Lyanna was somehow involved. No doubt in my mind that the old gods helped Howland win. In regards to the KOTLT, or in planting a baby (babies) inside of Lyanna? I favor Ned for Starkcest more than Brandon. Also, it's a tough old world over at Westeros. In my experience, thinking outside of the box is not usually very welcome over there. I have felt the burn. The best thread on Westeros is Heresy - a little tougher than over here, but great ideas are born over there. We're much more fun here though once we get on brainstorming streak! The only other way I can think of Ashara having twins is if Edric Dayne is Dany's twin. I might have missed previous discussion on ages, but wouldn't Edric Dayne be too young to be Dany's twin? Must it be a girl/boy set of twins or could Allyria Dayne be an option for Dany's twin? Is Aegon/Young Griff too old? One set of twins raised in Westeros and the other set of twins raised in Essos. I was thinking he's around the same age - young teens. Born at Starfall and milk brother to Jon. The assumption is that Wylla nursed him after Jon, but it could have been around the same time.I think GRRMs goal is to achieve moral ambiguity. The heroes do really bad things, and the villans do heroic things. Whether he has succeeded with most of his readers, I can't say, but he has me sold on a new way of looking at the actions of these characters and this world he created. Hopefully we can be your muse and your biggest cheerleader here. I'm looking forward to reading more from you!
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Post by stdaga on Sept 21, 2017 18:42:53 GMT
The best thread on Westeros is Heresy - a little tougher than over here, but great ideas are born over there. We're much more fun here though once we get on brainstorming streak Yes, I have looked at some of the heresy threads at Westeros. Maybe a dozen of them, but I know I that is like the tip of the iceberg of information. Lot's of thought provoking stuff over there. I usually look at stuff after the threads are closed, so I don't know if I have ever commented on one. I was thinking he's around the same age - young teens. Born at Starfall and milk brother to Jon. The assumption is that Wylla nursed him after Jon, but it could have been around the same time. For some reason I feel like he is 12-13 year age range, but I don't know why. Dany would be 14 at least by that time, maybe 15. I will need to look at those Ned Dayne chapters again. I'm looking forward to reading more from you! Thanks. I tend to think and process more than I comment, but I go in fits and starts of posting. I have posted way more at Last Hearth in 9 months than I have at Westeros in 5 years. LH and this place seem much more open to out-of-the-box thinking and even if you are crazy talking, everyone is polite and supportive! This place has that vibe, too!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 21, 2017 19:01:25 GMT
even if you are crazy talking, everyone is polite and supportive! Crazy talk is the best talk
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 26, 2017 3:51:44 GMT
[He was] a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." Bael entered Winterfell and partook of the Lord Stark's guest right disguised as a singer named Sygerrik, or "deceiver". What is another word for "deceiver"? Trickster. What in ASOIAF is associated with tricks and deception? Crows.
The crow had tricked him into flying, but when he woke up he was broken and the world was changed. "Let him die," insisted the Lord of Bones. "The black crow is a tricksy bird. I trust him not." " The crow lied when he said I could fly, and your brother lied too.". " Crows are all liars," Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. And Old Nan knows stuff, people! Always trust Old Nan!!
Since Old Nan believes that the Night’s King was a Stark, let's remind ourselves of who the Night's King also was: The 13th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. A crow.
In addition, Jon doesn‘t know about the tale of Bael the Bard, nor does Bran mention Brandon the Daughterless in his Brandon Starks of Old recaps. This brings to mind the following: The Night’s King name was stricken from record. There is no Brandon the Daughterless known to the children of Winterfell. And what led to the fall of the Night's King, again? His corpse queen with her white skin and blue eyes = the winter rose from the crypts of Winterfell. He gave her his seed and he gave her his soul. The Stark of Winterfell brought him down. Bael's son, the young Lord Stark, unwittingly slew his father in battle, because the father could not raise sword to his blood. (Show creep: The Night King has yet to directly & personally attack Jon Snow, despite multiple opportunities.) Finally, if you like the Bran the Timelord idea, chew on the possibility that the Night's King is a corrupted version of that original Brandon Stark...and if the babe in the crypts WAS fathered by "Bael" via some unnatural means, this implies that the descendants of House Stark all come from the Night's King. Magical Special Baby™ indeed. Circling back to this because I saw something related in Heresy - a poster suggested that the Night's King was buried in the lowest levels of the Winterfell crypts, as would be fitting for a Stark of Long Ago, and I was reminded again about the eerie similarities between the legend of Bael and that of the Night's King. Wanted to look at the two stories again, with both serving as a cautionary tale to the Starks - a warning not to practice 1st degree incest, for one, and not to practice necromancy. After reading between the lines of the Bael tale, I feel pretty good about the idea that the Stark maiden actually died - the whole "born with the dead" thing after hiding out in the crypts of Winterfell for a year? Yeah, she died, and was buried in the crypts - presumably with no iron sword to keep her in place, though, so she perhaps was summoned by someone to go a'haintin? So the pre-NK spies her from his post, but he wasn't afraid of her. Then: He chased her and caught her, which brings to mind: Melifeather brought up the very good point that the fact that the Night's Watch was involved in the search for the Stark maiden at all is a huge hint that everyone knew she was far away from Winterfell, and most likely beyond the Wall. And here we have the Night's King - a black crow - chasing the pale woman and catching her....like she was someone he'd been looking for. I find the part about "fearing nothing" interesting too, because now I have Jodie Foster from Silence of the Lambs in my head saying "We covet what we see every day... he knew her, the sonofabitch knew her." The NK had no fear of the pale woman, because he knew her. Then he got to know her even better, apparently: By all accounts that sounds like getting someone with child, that Special Magical Baby™,and then....there's that Faustian bargain I mentioned in the OP - Dr. Faustus of course selling his soul to the devil - via his representative Mephistopheles - in exchange for knowledge and power. And speaking of that, let's not forget this part of the classic story: In many versions of the story, particularly Goethe's drama, Mephistopheles helps Faust seduce a beautiful and innocent girl, usually named Gretchen, whose life is ultimately destroyed when she gives birth to Faust's bastard son. Realizing this unholy act, she drowns the child, and is held for murder. However, Gretchen's innocence saves her in the end, and she enters Heaven after execution. In Goethe's rendition, Faust is saved by God via his constant striving—in combination with Gretchen's pleadings with God in the form of the eternal feminine. However, in the early tales, Faust is irrevocably corrupted and believes his sins cannot be forgiven; when the term ends, the Devil carries him off to Hell. Gretchen and her family are destroyed by Mephistopheles' deceptions and Faust's desires. Part one of the story ends in tragedy for Faust, as Gretchen is saved but Faust is left to grieve in shame.
An unholy act...an abomination, you could say. A sin so grievous the girl would be willing to forfeit the life of her child for it, and pay the price for kinslaying. Interesting.
My eyeballs began to tickle here too, because Ygritte's tale of Bael has the Stark Lord - the one who plucked the fairest rose of Winterfell before handing it over to the bard, remember (thereby 'tainting' the deal) - remaining in Winterfell after his daughter went missing. However, if we put this in context of the actual Faust story (the pre-Goethe one) , the debtor realizes that he can't be redeemed and thus upholds the bargain with the Devil, accompanying him to Hell. Would the Westeros equivalent of this be forfeiting all right and title to lands and castles, removing oneself to the Wall?
Getting very circular/ouroborosy here, and now I'm also tired so will finish tomorrow. Last thought before I stop, though:
Brandon the Daughterless: father of the Stark maiden Night's King - said by Old Nan to be named Brandon Bael tale - 30 years later, the young Stark lord slays his father - the King Beyond the Wall, leading his "free folk" south - in battle. Night's King - "For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage." Joramun also blew the Horn of Winter and "woke giants from the earth" - we don't know what that means, but it sounds like it would have been a pretty big deal made necessary to combat a pretty big deal, no? Also, 13 and 30 sound suspiciously similar, similar enough that one could have been mistaken for the other over the thousands of years of Westerosi Telephone. Old Nan says that this NK Brandon was "a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." I'm not sure if this is brother in the familial sense (meaning incest) or brother in the organization sense (a fellow NW member), or both. It's funny though, that we have the similar situation playing out right now, all Wheel of Time like, what with the Stark of Winterfell being the bastard son of the fairest winter rose, teaming up with the leader of the wildlings, to stand against the southward march of the Others (pretty sure that Bael's army wasn't actually "free folk", fwiw). And, if Weasel Pie is correct with Bran the Timelord, this means the bastard Stark of Winterfell should eventually face off against his own brother Brandon, who,through the magic of weirnet travel and skinchanging, is also his father. More later.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 26, 2017 4:06:38 GMT
this means the bastard Stark of Winterfell should eventually face off against his own brother Brandon, who,through the magic of weirnet travel and skinchanging, is also his father. The NK had no fear of the pale woman, because he knew her. On board. Lyanna doesn't have much face time in the books, but she does tell Ned that a man's nature cannot be changed, and she says this in such a world-weary way, far too jaded for a girl of 14. I think she was already familiar with either Crasterization or whatever is creeping in the crypts. I feel pretty good about the idea that the Stark maiden actually died - the whole "born with the dead" thing after hiding out in the crypts of Winterfell for a year On board. Palms, dead and black I found an extraordinary support for Lyanna being dead and resurrected, will hit you tomorrow with that.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 26, 2017 4:47:31 GMT
Oh my, but we do have beastly fun together on this forum!
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 26, 2017 11:59:57 GMT
Circling back to this because I saw something related in Heresy - a poster suggested that the Night's King was buried in the lowest levels of the Winterfell crypts, as would be fitting for a Stark of Long Ago, and I was reminded again about the eerie similarities between the legend of Bael and that of the Night's King. I've only been skimming Heresy, but I did see something about "throwing the Nights King down" - which evoked thoughts of throwing down somewhere, like a well, or like the crypts. Back to Bran the time traveler, what explains his age now as a young boy? In Outlander's Claire travels back in time 200 years, but remains the same age she was when she went through the stones. At the end of season 2 she decides to go back in time again, but she's 18-20 years older now, so I'm waiting to see if in season 3 she remains 40-ish. It's never said Bran was adopted, but I guess he could be a changeling switched by fairies?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 26, 2017 13:15:08 GMT
Back to Bran the time traveler, what explains his age now as a young boy? The oak is the acorn and the acorn is the oak. Something like that. Meaning that time is wonky to a tree, and if Bran is connected to the weirnet, he would probably be able to live his thousand lives within a short span of time. If you consider it, no time at all needs to pass in the present for an event in the past to have taken place, because it's already happened. Also, Bran the TT is not physically travelling, his consciousness is travelling through time to inhabit the minds/bodies of other people. His physical body is just hanging out by the tree, just as BR's did for all those years. And I think we're seeing the last iteration of Bran's travels, he won't be going back in time to change things. When BR tells him the past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it, I don't know exactly how that would work, but I think it's true. Maybe the loop closes forever, or maybe he can't revisit a life already lived (and died).
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 26, 2017 13:24:07 GMT
Exactly. Bran is the 13th Doctor-- there will be no more regeneration after this.
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