|
|
Post by Melifeather on Mar 13, 2020 16:16:43 GMT
This thread is for people who want to discuss the timeline! Specifically beginning from Rhaegar and Elia's marriage until the Assault on Dragonstone. I'll start this off with my opinion. I know it's not perfect, so feel free to dig in and tear it apart!
Year 280
Jan 280 - Rhaegar and Elia's Wedding
Oct 280 - Rhaenys born on Dragonstone. Elia placed on 6 months of bed rest.
Dec 280 - Ned turns 18 and Jaime turns 15
Year 281
Jan 281 - Brandon turns 19
April 281 - Elia ends bed rest. Aegon conceived.
April/May 281 - Attack on Elia on her return to Kings Landing by the Kingswood Brotherhood. Gerold Hightower injured.
June 281 - Aerys sends out a detachment led by Arthur Dayne to deal with KWB.
July 281 - The detachment finds and engages the KWB, but they escaped capture, taking Merrit Frey with them.
Aug 281 - Sumner Crakehall ransoms Merrit Frey from KWB.
Sept 281 - KWB defeated. Jaime Lannister is knighted on battlefield.
Oct 281 - Jaime returns to Casterly Rock. Brandon arrives at Riverrun. His engagement to Catelyn is announced. Brandon duels Petyr, then leaves for the Harrenhal tourney. The plan is for the wedding to occur after the tourney.
Nov 281 - False Spring. Tourney at Harrenhal. The search for the Knight of the Laughing Tree begins. Ned and Ashara conceive Jon.
Dec 281 - False Spring. The search for the KofLT and Lyanna continues. Rhaegar and Elia go to Dorne to prepare for Aegon's birth.
Year 282
Jan 282 - Aegon born on Dragonstone. Lyanna abducted. Brandon turns 20. Tully/Stark Wedding. Brandon "heard about Lyanna" and left unmarried. Vowed to Catelyn that they would marry when he returned. Later this month, Brandon arrives in Kings Landing. Rickard Stark summoned.
Feb 282 - Rickard arrives in Kings Landing. Trial by Battle declared. Rickard and Brandon executed. Ned and Robert summoned. Ashara slips away by ship. Later this month, Jon Arryn calls his banners.
Mar 282 - Ned leaves the Eyrie to go home. Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon move on Gulltown. Later this month Ned and Ashara meet somewhere along the shore south of the Sisters in order to sail across the Bite together. (Fisherman's daughter tale)
Apr 282 - Robert returns to Storms End to call his banners. At the end of the month his army has three quick battles near Summerhal. Brings captives back to Storms End, then leaves again to march towards Ashford. Ned calls his banners.
May 282 - Robert's Battle at Ashford, which he loses, but escapes. Macy Tyrell moves towards Storm's End, Ned begins marching south, and Jon Connington pursues Robert.
Jun 282 - Robert reaches the Stoney Sept. Ned's army reaches Jon Arryn. Negotiations with Hoster Tully. Ned and Jon marry Catelyn and Lysa. Hoster takes two weeks to muster an army. Stark and Tully forces move on Stoney Sept to rescue Robert, while Jon Arryn moves east. Elia ends her bedrest after delivering Aegon. Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon sail to Dorne.
July 282 - Battle of the Bells. End of month, JonCon is exiled, Stark and Tully armies ferry across the Gods Eye to rejoin Arryn forces. I theorize that there was a small battle near the ruins of Whitewalls, and that is where Ned found Lyanna dying of a wound to the belly. Ned returns home to bring Lyanna's corpse home. Ashara is still there disguised as Wylla. Meanwhile down in Dorne, Rhaegar swaps baby Aegon for the Pisswater Prince, and he, Elia, and Rhaenys leave Dorne for Kings Landing.
Aug 282 - Ashara gives birth to Jon (9 mos. after tourney) at Winterfell. Ashara maintains her Wylla disguise and nurses Jon while Ned grieves Lyanna. Later in the month Ned decides to convince Ashara to leave Jon with him and that she should return to Starfall. As long as everyone believed she was Wylla, there'd be no record of Ashara ever being at Winterfell. Ned was already married to Catelyn, so he could not marry Ashara, but if Jon's birth were kept secret, then Ashara would have a better chance at securing a good match for herself. Secures wet-nurse for Jon and Ashara begins her journey home. Meanwhile, Rhaegar returned from the south. King Aerys tells him of the rebel army gathering north of the Trident. Rhaegar begins mustering and training more men. Encourages his father to summon Tywin.
Sep 282 - Stark, Tully, and Arryn armies reorganize. King Aerys is nervous that Tywin hasn't answered his summons, becomes suspicious of Rhaegar, and takes Elia into custody, locking her and the children in the royal apartments in Maegor's Holdfast. Dorne musters and sends 10,000 men "in defense" of Elia. Aerys has his pyromancers hide wildfyre everywhere. Chelsted burned after discovering the plot.
Oct 282 - Rhaegar leaves Kings Landing with a small force. King Aerys orders Ser Luwin to meet and take command of the 10,000 Dornishmen still marching up the Kingsroad from the south and reminds him that he's got Elia and the children in the tower.
Nov 282 - Battle of the Trident. Battle on the Mander. Later this month, word reaches Kings Landing that Rhaegar is dead. Remaining Targaryen fleet retreats to Kings Landing.
Dec 282 - All rebel forces begin marching south. Robert was injured, so his pace was much slower, as was Jon Arryn's, but Ned took the van and raced towards Kings Landing. King Aerys ships an already pregnant Rhaella to Dragonstone with the remaining Targaryen fleet. Viserys is with her. A winter storm destroys most of the Targaryen fleet. Rhaella's ship manages to make it to Dragonstone.
Year 283
Jan 283 - The Sack of Kings Landing. Ned fights the three Kingsguard who were guarding Elia and the children. During their fight, Gregor Clegane and Armory Lorch managed to climb Maegor's Holdfast and rape and kill Elia, rape and kill Rhaenys, and smash the Pisswater Prince's head against the wall. Ned lost most of his closest men, thus he "built" eight cairns upon the ridge. Ned and Robert fight over the corpses of Elia's children. Ned and Howland leave with a small detachment to lift the siege at Storms End. Rhaella crowns Viserys.
Feb 283 - Seige lifted. Ned decides to sail from Storms End to Starfall to return Arthur's sword and see Ashara. Stannis begins to rebuild the royal fleet.
Mar 283 - Ashara fakes her own death. Ned helps her push a dead body out of the Palestone tower into the sea...an earlier parallel to the Petyr, Lysa, Sansa, Moondoor scheme.
Apr 283 - Robb Stark born at Riverrun. Ned sails back to Storms End, then rides to Kings Landing. Reconciles with Robert over their shared grief for Lyanna. Later that month Ned makes his way to Riverrun to collect Catelyn, Robb, and Maester Luwin.
May 283 - Birth of Daenerys on Dragonstone (9 mos. after Jon Snow was born). Rhaella fakes her own death. She assumes the disguise of Septa Lemore, sails to Dorne to collect baby Aegon to go into exile. Ned and Catelyn pass by Moat Cailin on their way north.
July 283 - Ser Willem Darry ushers Daenerys and Viserys off Dragonstone before the castellan can sell them to Robert. Tells everyone that Rhaella died in childbirth. Ned, Catelyn, Robb, and Maester Luwin arrive to Winterfell. Catelyn first sees Jon with his wet-nurse. Wonders when he could have been conceived. Jon is a small baby and looks younger than his true age, but large enough that Catelyn suspects Ashara was his mother.
July/Aug 283 - The Assault on Dragonstone. Willem and the children are already gone.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Green Bard on Mar 20, 2020 16:35:30 GMT
So I am joining you cold here. Where do you place the Tower of Joy scenes in this? You only talk about Ned leaving by ship to deliver the sword. How did he get it? What is your view of who Lyanna would have given birth to?
A couple observations, while I am very sympathetic to the idea that Jon is older than Robb, I think that the idea that he is 8-9 months older than Robb to be excessive. One way to have him be older than your timeline suggests is for Robb to be Brandon's bastard. Ned and Cat don't marry until after the battle of the Bells, it is in Cat's POV, so you saying that Ned was "already married to Catelyn" at that time, would be a near thing. That means that I think the Tully Stark wedding you propose is impossible. My prior analysis is that 4 months separate Ned leaving the Eyrie and the Battle of the Bell, so we are very close there. I would compress the actions that you put from Jan-March 282 into about a month and a half. that would make the boys more like 5 months apart, a bit more believable.
I do agree that Ashara probably was the fisherman's daughter, but I fall on the B+A side of things, and that Ashara went to the Eyrie at Brandon's behest and bore his child, though I don't know if it was Jon. I do put Ashara's conception in King's landing not long before Brandon's death, not Harrenhal.
These are just my thoughts, of course.
|
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Mar 20, 2020 20:19:35 GMT
So I am joining you cold here. Where do you place the Tower of Joy scenes in this? You only talk about Ned leaving by ship to deliver the sword. How did he get it? What is your view of who Lyanna would have given birth to? Sorry. I quite forget that newcomers may not be familiar with all of my theories. I believe the tower of joy that Ned dreams about occurred during the Sack of Kings Landing and was a separate event from when he found Lyanna. I think Hightower, Dayne, and Whent were guarding Elia and the children who were locked in Maegor's Holdfast. When Ned was called to Robert's bedside after he was gored by the boar, he passed Blount, Greenfield, and Selmy. It was an eerie bit of deja vu: I have a thread specifically just for the tower of joy HERE. Lyanna's death scene is a little more difficult to prove. There really isn't any clear text that I can point to. Instead I want to point out that when Ned and Jon Arryn made their marriage pacts with Hoster Tully, only Ned and Hoster are credited with coming down upon Stoney Sept. Yes Jon Arryn's heir died during the Battle of the Bells, but I think Jon Arryn returned east after the wedding to fight other unnamed battles. I think Denys Arryn stayed to fight along side Ned. The splitting of the army would have been similar to how Robb Stark decided to split his army while encamped at Moat Cailin when he learned Riverrun was under siege. Robb lead his force west along the north bank of the Trident towards the Twin Towers while he entrusted Roose Bolton to ride west along the south bank. The plan was to surround Riverrun. Roose's army came into conflict with Tywin Lannister while Robb's army surprised Jaime Lannister's. If you look at where Stoney Sept is in relation to Riverrun, Harrenhal, and the Trident, you can see that the Gods Eye is between Stoney Sept and the Trident. If the Rebel army was victorious at Stoney Sept, why was their next major battle further north at the Trident? If you are looking at the map, it looks like a retreat, but I suspect there's simply just missing information and unnamed battles. What is curious is that there's a ferry on the southwest bank of the Gods Eye called Ned's Ferry. You might recall that Dunk and Egg travelled on Ned's Ferry when they were traveling from Stoney Sept to Lord Butterwell's tourney at Whitewalls, which was located on the east bank of the God's Eye. Whitewalls was destroyed on Bloodraven's orders after Daemon II Blackfyre made an attempt to take the throne. It is my opinion that those ruins are the "tower long fallen" that Ned references in his dream. If my deduction is correct then Lyanna was found sometime after the Battle of the Bells and prior to the Battle on the Trident. Furthermore, since I do not believe Rhaegar abducted her, I also don't believe that Lyanna was ever pregnant. I think she died of a wound to the belly at the hand of Sumner Crakehall whose sigil is a boar. Her wound is later paralled by Robert's boar wound. The Crakehalls are bannermen to the Lannisters who I believe plotted the fake Rhaegar & Lyanna scheme. They abducted Lyanna with someone dressed in armor that looked like Rhaegars and with men carrying his banners. They kept her prisoner in the ruins of Whitewalls until discovered by Ned's forces when they were moving north from Stoney Sept to rejoin Jon Arryn's forces. A couple observations, while I am very sympathetic to the idea that Jon is older than Robb, I think that the idea that he is 8-9 months older than Robb to be excessive. One way to have him be older than your timeline suggests is for Robb to be Brandon's bastard. When Catelyn first arrived to Winterfell, Jon was already living there with his nursemaid. The first woman she suspected as Jon's mother was Ashara Dayne, so he must have looked old enough to have been conceived during the tourney at Harrenhal. Jon's physical build is described as lithe and graceful while Robb is described as more robust. We have other children described in this way: Gilly's son Monster and Dalla's son Aemon. Monster is older than Aemon, but he is described as little and not as large or strong as Dalla's boy. I suspect they are a parallel of Jon and Robb. Jon is like Monster while Robb is like Aemon. Ned and Cat don't marry until after the battle of the Bells, it is in Cat's POV, This is a common believe, but a mistaken one. Ned and Jon Arryn went to Hoster to make a marriage alliance in order to get Tully men to help save Robert, yet Catelyn recalls spending two weeks together before he had to return to war. Some readers point to Denys death as Jon Arryn's motivation for marrying Lysa, but that's simply not the case. Jon Arryn had another heir and his name is Harrold Hardyng aka Harry the heir. In my opinion, George has written a tricky passage, intended to mislead. Hoster Tully would have needed time to call his banners. There's no way he automatically had soldiers at the ready. The two weeks that Ned and Catelyn had together was the time Hoster took to muster his men, therefore the wedding took place before the Battle of the Bells. I believe Ashara, already in cognito as Wylla, gave birth to Jon at Winterfell in August 282 nine months after the Harrenhal Tourney, but just like the Bastard O'Winterfell story, he was born with the dead in the crypts - not literally in the crypts, but born to a woman that disappeared and reappeared after the baby was born. If Ashara isn't really dead you could say that she was found "hiding in the crypts". I theorize that Ned brought Lyanna's corpse home prior to the Battle on the Trident. This connects both Lyanna and Ashara to the crypts and Jon being born with the dead. Ned was still grieving the death of his sister when he had to inform Ashara that he couldn't marry her, because he had already married Catelyn. This is later paralleled by Robb Stark, but in reverse. Robb was supposed to marry a Frey girl for duty, but ended up marrying a Westerling girl for love, and he was severely punished for this at the Red Wedding. Ned did his duty and married Catelyn and was forced to forsake the woman he loved. This was devastating news to Ashara, but it saved Robert and likely turned the rebellion in their favor. An unwed mother has very poor prospects, and that is why I believe Ned wanted to protect Ashara and deny that she was Jon's mother. It's also a good reason to leave Jon behind. Ashara had to pretend that her child died. Everybody already knew she had been dishonored at the Harrenhal Tourney, so she pretended that her child was stillborn. She returned home as Wylla, and I believe decided to continue to live in her family's home as Wylla rather than be forced into a marriage beneath her station. I would like to encourage you to present your own, full timeline here, even if you don't have everything the way you like it. Sometimes an excel spreadsheet can be helpful, because you can make a chart with months and years and start dropping in where and when you think events occurred. We can go over specific text as well like the ones relevant to Catelyn and Ned's wedding. I think the text is flexible enough to place the Battle of the Bells anywhere from June 282 to early 283, but it's not the only peg that needs to fit into a hole. It has to include Aegon's conception, birth, and age upon death. It has to fit with Ned, Jaime's, and Brandon's birthdays/ages. It has to fit with the length of time Elia recovered after Rhaenys and Aegon's births. I believe my timeline satisfies all the known details, but I am very open to looking at what others have come up with. |
|
|
|
Post by The Green Bard on Mar 23, 2020 2:10:53 GMT
If the Rebel army was victorious at Stoney Sept, why was their next major battle further north at the Trident? If you are looking at the map, it looks like a retreat, but I suspect there's simply just missing information and unnamed battles. Well, going to Riverrun for a wedding and losing ground in the intermittent time would explain this "retreat". Ned and Jon Arryn went to Hoster to make a marriage alliance in order to get Tully men to help save Robert, yet Catelyn recalls spending two weeks together before he had to return to war. Some readers point to Denys death as Jon Arryn's motivation for marrying Lysa, but that's simply not the case. Jon Arryn had another heir and his name is Harrold Hardyng aka Harry the heir. In my opinion, George has written a tricky passage, intended to mislead. Hoster Tully would have needed time to call his banners. There's no way he automatically had soldiers at the ready. The two weeks that Ned and Catelyn had together was the time Hoster took to muster his men, therefore the wedding took place before the Battle of the Bells. I agree with the logic that Hoster would be more willing to commit troops with the marriage alliances completed, The story that he helped at Stoney Sept without the marriage alliances in place is a bit of an issue. Otherwise, I don't quite understand your reasoning beyond this. The fighting hadn't even started when you are saying the dual wedding happened, nor had Brandon died. Jon Arryn is established as going to Gulltown immediately after Aerys killed the Stark and demanded Ned and Robert's heads. Ned is established as going north through the fingers and sisters. The logical starting point for both these journeys is the Eyrie, not Riverrun. I suppose they could have been en route during the time of the abduction, but remember, Winter had started again after the tourney. I don't see how they have the opportunity to go back and forth through the mountains of the moon during this time frame. It seems to me that they would have held off on the wedding until after the high road was passable, meaning that Ned, Jon, and Robert never made it past the mountains before the abduction. I also don't see how Rickard or Hoster would have done it this way, before Brandon was dead. I need to see a lot more of your arguments on this one. I would like to encourage you to present your own, full timeline here, even if you don't have everything the way you like it. Sometimes an excel spreadsheet can be helpful, because you can make a chart with months and years and start dropping in where and when you think events occurred. I am starting it, but it's not even close to finished yet. For now, let's just say I am fine with your years 280 and 281. as is obvious fro above, I am not on the same page starting in 282. I agree that there is really not a lot anchoring things down in the middle of the rebellion. I get the feeling that there was a big rush to call the banners in the north and the south, then link up. The link-up happened at Stoney Sept. I think the timeline breathes at that point as the rebels entrench and Aerys flails before Rhaegar returns. As far as I can tell, the choice of the battlefield of the ruby ford on the north side of the trident was strategic by Ned/Jon/Robert. They waited until the opponent, who had superior numbers, tried to cross, let them bring the attack from the river. Your 4 months between the 2 battles is probably a the low end estimate. |
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Mar 23, 2020 19:54:14 GMT
I agree with the logic that Hoster would be more willing to commit troops with the marriage alliances completed, The story that he helped at Stoney Sept without the marriage alliances in place is a bit of an issue. Otherwise, I don't quite understand your reasoning beyond this. The fighting hadn't even started when you are saying the dual wedding happened, nor had Brandon died. Jon Arryn is established as going to Gulltown immediately after Aerys killed the Stark and demanded Ned and Robert's heads. Ned is established as going north through the fingers and sisters. The logical starting point for both these journeys is the Eyrie, not Riverrun. I suppose they could have been en route during the time of the abduction, but remember, Winter had started again after the tourney. I don't see how they have the opportunity to go back and forth through the mountains of the moon during this time frame. It seems to me that they would have held off on the wedding until after the high road was passable, meaning that Ned, Jon, and Robert never made it past the mountains before the abduction. I also don't see how Rickard or Hoster would have done it this way, before Brandon was dead. I need to see a lot more of your arguments on this one. I think we are both confused now!  OK, I think you've got some events mixed up, because Brandon and Rickard were killed months before the double wedding. I think you may want to re-review my proposed timeline, because it doesn't match with what you are saying. Are you conflating Brandon's wedding with Ned's? IMO Brandon visited Riverrun on his way to Harrenhal to compete in the tourney. The marriage date was announced at dinner and the duel with Petyr afterward. After the tourney Brandon returned to Riverrun for the wedding. Rickard was still home, because there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. I think Brandon, Lyanna, and Benjen travelled down from Winterfell and stopped at Riverrun. It's also possible that they split up with Brandon going to Riverrun and Lyanna and Benjen continuing on to Harrenhal to meet up with Ned, who would have been coming from the Eyrie with Robert. After the tourney Brandon and Ned travelled to Riverrun while Lyanna and Benjen left to return home. If Rickard was to attend Brandon's wedding, Benjen would need to return home to be the Stark in Winterfell so that Rickard could attend. Naturally Howland Reed would have accompanied them through the Riverlands since Greywater Watch was on the way. I posit that Lyanna, Benjen, and Howland were ambushed near the Inn at the Crossroads by people disguised as Rhaegar and his men. By the time Brandon and Ned arrived to Riverrun, word had come that Lyanna had been abducted. Brandon rode to Kings Landing, but Ned rode to Jon Arryn for help, and that is how his starting point was the Eyrie while Brandon's was Riverrun. The False Spring encompassed November and December of 281. Winter returned January of 282. January is also a common month for weddings, and I think Brandon and Catelyn's wedding was set for January when Lyanna went missing. Ned and Jon Arryn's wedding took place at least six months later after Gulltown and Ashford, but before the Battle of the Bells at Stoney Sept. I am starting it, but it's not even close to finished yet. For now, let's just say I am fine with your years 280 and 281. as is obvious fro above, I am not on the same page starting in 282. I agree that there is really not a lot anchoring things down in the middle of the rebellion. I get the feeling that there was a big rush to call the banners in the north and the south, then link up. The link-up happened at Stoney Sept. I think the timeline breathes at that point as the rebels entrench and Aerys flails before Rhaegar returns. As far as I can tell, the choice of the battlefield of the ruby ford on the north side of the trident was strategic by Ned/Jon/Robert. They waited until the opponent, who had superior numbers, tried to cross, let them bring the attack from the river. Your 4 months between the 2 battles is probably a the low end estimate. GRRM said the Rebellion lasted about a year. The accepted starting point is when Jon Arryn called his banners with the end point being the Sack of Kings Landing. IMO the double-wedding and the Battle of the Bells is the mid-point. GRRM also said the siege of Storms End also lasted about one year. The siege didn't begin until Mace Tyrell beat Robert at Ashford, so start counting out from there. |
|
|
|
Post by The Green Bard on Mar 24, 2020 22:21:20 GMT
IMO the double-wedding and the Battle of the Bells is the mid-point. GRRM also said the siege of Storms End also lasted about one year. Got it. I don't know why I wa so blind. I really did look for (but ultimately overlooked) the double-wedding where you had it and assumed that you meant is was in January (where Robb's gestation makes no sense). It fits in the month of June where you have it, although I do still fall on the side of the wedding being after the battle, but a on month shift doesn't bother me nearly as much. GRRM also said the siege of Storms End also lasted about one year. The siege didn't begin until Mace Tyrell beat Robert at Ashford, so start counting out from there. That 1 month I mention above is our only disagreement regarding these SSMs as well. I would swap the weddung and the TBotB. Why, again, other than securing Hoster's allegiance, do you disagrees with Cat's logic and swapping them? Why do you think Ashara got pregnant at the tourney? It really causes you to move Dany's conception and birth forward in the timeline. If you peg his conception around the time they met up in the Vale, then it would match the Fisherman's daughter tale better, tie Dany's conception back to the time of the battle of the trident, and make the age gap between Jon and Robb more palatable. What was Rheagar doing if he wasn't with Lyanna? As to Ned finding Lyanna dead when he did, why didn't he tell Robert then? Why would he let Robert think it was Rheagar's fault? Why would he let Robert marry a Lannister? |
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Mar 25, 2020 15:24:04 GMT
That 1 month I mention above is our only disagreement regarding these SSMs as well. I would swap the weddung and the TBotB. Why, again, other than securing Hoster's allegiance, do you disagrees with Cat's logic and swapping them? Lets look at what Catelyn said: The only thing Catelyn confirms is that Ned remained with her for two weeks before returning to war. She never says if he left to save Robert or if he left for some other battle. My position is that the reason why they had two weeks together was because Hoster would need some time to gather men. Why do you think Ashara got pregnant at the tourney? It really causes you to move Dany's conception and birth forward in the timeline. If you peg his conception around the time they met up in the Vale, then it would match the Fisherman's daughter tale better, tie Dany's conception back to the time of the battle of the trident, and make the age gap between Jon and Robb more palatable. What does Daenerys have to do with Ashara? Barristan Selmy's POV indicates that Ashara had been dishonored at Harrenhal and that she gave birth to a stillborn child. The child could not have been Daenerys if Ashara had gotten pregnant at the Harrenhal Tourney, because she's too young. What was Rheagar doing if he wasn't with Lyanna? As to Ned finding Lyanna dead when he did, why didn't he tell Robert then? After the Harrenhal Tourney, Rhaegar and Elia went to Dragonstone to prepare for Aegon's birth. Lyanna went missing right around the same time that Aegon was born. That is why Rhaegar could not be found in Kings Landing. We actually don't know when Ned told Robert that Lyanna was dead. The text only mentions that Ned and Robert had a falling out over the murders of Elia, Rhaenys, and "Aegon" and later reconciled over their shared grief, but that statement can be interpreted more than one way. The word "another" is the tricky word that convinces most readers that Lyanna's death occurred after the Sack, but the definition of "another" doesn't have to only mean "one more" or "subsequent". It can also mean a different or distinct death or some other death from the deaths they argued over. The word "another" has three separate but similar definitions: I posit that by the time Ned was returning home from Starfall, tempers were cool enough for he and Robert to talk again. They would have had shared grief to bring them back together. She could have died many months to a year prior and they could still have that shared grief to bring them back together. Why would he let Robert think it was Rheagar's fault? I think one of the promises that Lyanna extracted from Ned was to not tell Robert - nor anybody else for that matter - because it could cast a very negative light on Robert's conquest and subsequent claim to the throne. Going to war over an unjust king is honorable. Avenging Rickard, Brandon, and Lyanna's deaths by killing Rhaegar was honorable. If Rhaegar never did the kidnapping, then rising up against Aerys and Rhaegar would be treason! Even though she was laying there dying, she wanted Robert to rule and she wanted to protect her family, because Ned's part in the Rebellion would be treasonous too. She already lost her father and elder brother. She would have been afraid for Ned and Benjen's future safety too. Why would he let Robert marry a Lannister? Because a man who Ned considered as a second father negotiated the marriage alliance and it would have secured Robert's safety and the peace of the realm. |
|
|
|
Post by The Green Bard on Mar 28, 2020 22:01:17 GMT
The only thing Catelyn confirms is that Ned remained with her for two weeks before returning to war. She never says if he left to save Robert or if he left for some other battle. My position is that the reason why they had two weeks together was because Hoster would need some time to gather men. Thant's not the quote I meant. I meant this one, from Cat I in ASoS: I suppose she could be mis-remembering, but it implies that the double wedding was after the Battle of the Bells. The word "another" is the tricky word that convinces most readers that Lyanna's death occurred after the Sack, but the definition of "another" doesn't have to only mean "one more" or "subsequent". It can also mean a different or distinct death or some other death from the deaths they argued over. The word "another" has three separate but similar definitions: I take your point here, but I can't buy that logic. In order to reconcile, you need to have fought first, and if Lyanna died before the fight it is still incredibly illogical. I totally get that GRRM can be misleading with his language, but the situation you're describing doesn't make logical sense to me. I think one of the promises that Lyanna extracted from Ned was to not tell Robert - nor anybody else for that matter - because it could cast a very negative light on Robert's conquest and subsequent claim to the throne. OK, sure, keep your promise, but I don't see how it gets as far as Jon Arryn having the opportunity to betroth Robert to Cersei. After winning at the Trident, he would have continued the fight against Tywin's army in King's landing instead of allying with them in some semblance of the allied forces. Ned is not Doran Martell, I don't see how he would have waited 15 years to right that wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Mar 30, 2020 18:20:53 GMT
I suppose she could be mis-remembering, but it implies that the double wedding was after the Battle of the Bells. Yes. I am familiar with that quote. I sort of referenced it before when I was talking about Jon Arryn's heir. My position is that Jon Arryn always has had an heir. His current heir, should Robyn die, is Harrold Hardying. One of his heirs died at the Battle of the Bells, but he was never without an heir. It just depends upon how far out on the family tree will his next heir be. Jon Arryn was motivated to remarry so that he'd have a direct heir, regardless of when and where Denys Arryn died. It's Catelyn's train of thought that persuades some readers to believe the marriage occurred after the battle, but I think the two weeks they had together suggests that the marriage occurred before the battle. I take your point here, but I can't buy that logic. In order to reconcile, you need to have fought first, and if Lyanna died before the fight it is still incredibly illogical. I totally get that GRRM can be misleading with his language, but the situation you're describing doesn't make logical sense to me. We shall have to agree to disagree on whether or not its logical that Lyanna's death occurred prior to Ned and Robert's argument over the murders and rape of Elia and her children. If Robert was with Ned when they found Lyanna, they already shared grief then. Then they were separated when Robert got injured at the Trident and Ned rode with the van to Kings Landing. After the Sack they argued over Elia and the children and Ned left to lift the siege at Storms End. It would be months before Ned and Robert saw each other again. By then the anger would have softened enough to speak to each other civilly, and then they could have an intimate conversation again about the circumstances of Lyanna's death and reconcile over the grief they shared. IMO it's a very logical theory. OK, sure, keep your promise, but I don't see how it gets as far as Jon Arryn having the opportunity to betroth Robert to Cersei. After winning at the Trident, he would have continued the fight against Tywin's army in King's landing instead of allying with them in some semblance of the allied forces. Ned is not Doran Martell, I don't see how he would have waited 15 years to right that wrong. Don't forget that Jon Arryn was Robert's Hand, and Ned had returned to Winterfell - probably still upset about what he learned about the Lannisters, but not about to start another war when the realm was at peace again. Jon Arryn was a father figure to Ned and he likely became more important after Rickard died. So Ned would have accepted Jon Arryn's proposal to Robert to marry Cersei, and then of course the Lannisters became Robert's in-laws, so I don't see how Ned had any choice other than to swallow his anger and forget about revenge. Then there's Lyanna's promises, one of which I believe had to do with the legitimacy and honor of the conquest. It is evident that Ned still felt hatred for the Lannisters fourteen years later when in his thoughts he names Tywin a "pit viper" - in other words he's a lying, poisonous, snake. |
|
