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Post by min on Jul 24, 2016 12:59:53 GMT
Here's a curious statement The case of GAME OF THRONES and A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is perhaps unique. I can't think of any other instance where the movie or TV show came out as the source material was still being written. So when you ask me, "will the show spoil the books," all I can do is say, "yes and no," and mumble once again about the butterfly effect. Those pretty little butterflies have grown into mighty dragons. Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so. - GRRMOf course he's answering a question about the show; but is he talking about his books. There are numerous references to butterfies in Westeros Wiki including those black and white butterflies native to the Summer Isles and the source of butterfly disease. Then there is the butterfly effect theory of chaotic systems particularly weather systems. But how about this: In 1898,[2] Jacques Hadamard noted general divergence of trajectories in spaces of negative curvature. Pierre Duhem discussed the possible general significance of this in 1908.[2] The idea that one butterfly could eventually have a far-reaching ripple effect on subsequent historic events made its earliest known appearance in "A Sound of Thunder", a 1952 short story by Ray Bradbury about time travel.[4] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effectThe butterfly dream: www.the-philosopher.co.uk/butter.htmAnd this from Ray Bradbury story Sound of Thunder: In the year 2055, time travel has become a practical reality, and the company Time Safari Inc. offers wealthy adventurers the chance to travel back in time to hunt extinct species such as dinosaurs. A hunter named Eckels pays $10,000 to join a hunting party that will travel back to the late Jurassic Era, on a guided safari to kill a Tyrannosaurus rex. As the party waits to depart, they discuss the recent presidential elections in which an apparently fascist candidate, Deutscher, has been defeated by the more moderate Keith, to the relief of many concerned. When the party arrives in the past, Travis (the hunting guide) and Lesperance (Travis’s assistant) warn Eckels and the two other hunters, Billings and Kramer, about the necessity of minimizing the events they change before they go back, since tiny alterations to the distant past could snowball into catastrophic changes in history. Travis explains that the hunters are obliged to stay on a levitating path to avoid disrupting the environment, that any deviation will be punished with hefty fines, and that prior to the hunt, Time Safari scouts had been sent back to select and tag their prey, which would have died within minutes anyway, and whose death has been calculated to have minimal impact on the future. Although Eckels is initially excited about the hunt, when the monstrous Tyrannosaur approaches, he loses his nerve. Travis tells him he cannot leave, but Eckels panics, steps off the path and runs into the forest. Eckels hears shots, and on his return he sees that the two guides have killed the dinosaur, and shortly afterward the falling tree that would have killed the T-Rex has landed on top of it. Realizing that Eckels has fallen off the path, Travis threatens to leave him in the past unless he removes the bullets from the dinosaur’s body, as they cannot be left behind. Eckels obeys, but Travis remains furious, threatening on the return trip to shoot him. Upon returning to 2055, Eckels notices subtle changes - English words are now spelled and spoken strangely, people behave differently, and Eckels discovers that Deutscher has won the election instead of Keith. Looking at the mud on his boots, Eckels finds a crushed butterfly, whose death has apparently set in motion a series of subtle changes that have affected the nature of the alternative present to which the safari has returned. He frantically pleads with Travis to take him back into the past to undo the damage, but Travis had previously explained that the time machine cannot return to any point in time that it has already been visited (so as to prevent any paradoxes). Travis raises his gun, and there is "a sound of thunder". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Sound_of_ThunderI think imagery like Ned's "dreams about a storm of rose petals blowing across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death" or Lyanna clutching at blacked petals or leaves, even MMD's prophecy of mountains blowing in the wind like leaves; are all butterfly effect metaphors. Butterflies that mimic leaves and flowers and have eyes on their wings.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 24, 2016 15:09:27 GMT
And this from Ray Bradbury story Sound of Thunder: I think a LOT of fantasy/scifi authors have capitalized on this story/plot concept...and of course, George is at heart one of those guys. (I think I've even seen the movie version of this on late night SyFy channel, actually - sandwiched between CrocoSaur and Attack of the Mega Kraken. Gods I love SyFy's bad movies.) But, amazing catch and one I can absolutely see playing out. Those black and white butterflies of Naath really pique my interest. Did you know that's a real thing? There's a version of the monarch (which is one of the world's most toxic species of butterfly) known as the white morph, Danaus nivosus....it is very rare and the majority of the population is found solely on the island of Oahu.
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Post by min on Jul 24, 2016 15:27:58 GMT
And this from Ray Bradbury story Sound of Thunder: I think a LOT of fantasy/scifi authors have capitalized on this story/plot concept...and of course, George is at heart one of those guys. (I think I've even seen the movie version of this on late night SyFy channel, actually - sandwiched between CrocoSaur and Attack of the Mega Kraken. Gods I love SyFy's bad movies.) But, amazing catch and one I can absolutely see playing out. Those black and white butterflies of Naath really pique my interest. Did you know that's a real thing? There's a version of the monarch (which is one of the world's most toxic species of butterfly) known as the white morph, Danaus nivosus....it is very rare and the majority of the population is found solely on the island of Oahu. CrocoSaud and Mega Kaken... That's hilarious. I didn't know about that species of butterfly! Yes, I think the business of going back in time and changing events in a small way changig future history is very curious. I'm starting to think that perhaps Bran can do that, but what evidence is there so far. Hodor? I'm not even sure I know that story. He goes into the crypts as Walder and comes out as Hodor?
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Post by min on Jul 24, 2016 20:33:56 GMT
One big clue to backwards time is MMR's "sun rising in the west" spiel. And although we can't place Dany, Drogo and Rhaego north of the Wall (yet), there has to be a reason HBO chose to show that to us. For all I know Jon could end up being Rhaego. Yes that part of the prophecy says time is running backwards. And I suppose that's how we should look at the rest of the prophecy. I'm expecting this to come out as some sort of vision at Vaes Dothrak given her vision in th HoU: the line of crones coming out of the water and kneeling to her. Also suggesting generation upon generation; a very long time ago. When the seas dry up could mean that she sees the Narrow Sea emptying of water as it's captured and stored in glaciers. That would connect Westeros and Essos. She would be watching it in reverse time; just as weirBran experiences a reversal of events when he talks to Jon. I have no idea what Mountains blowing in the wind like leaves could mean. Except that mountains are men; giants of their time and like leaves blowing in the wind is a metaphorical twist on leaves being blown around randomly by gusts of wind. The butterfly affect again. "The answer my friend is blowing in the wind." - Grateful Dead muse, Bob Dylan "Blowin' in the Wind" is a song written by Bob Dylan in 1962 and released as a single and on his album The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan in 1963. Although it has been described as a protest song, it poses a series of rhetorical questions about peace, war and freedom. The refrain "The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind" has been described as "impenetrably ambiguous: either the answer is so obvious it is right in your face, or the answer is as intangible as the wind" - wikipedia As for seeing Khal Drogo again; which is specifically what Dany asks MMD; could the Dothrki forebears have occupied parts of Westeros during a time when the Narrow Sea didn't exist? Such that she would have a vision of Drogo beyond the current wall? Or does the prophecy suggest something more recent? When the (grass) seas dry up and monsters like Euron are tossed around by forces of nature. If Rheago's spirit landed anywhere north of the wall; then Mance's son Monster might fit the bill.
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Post by min on Jul 25, 2016 17:45:38 GMT
If Bran learns to time travel, affect/change the past, or even participate in it through skinchanging other characters, we could well end up with Bran as KotLT I'm going to say it's possible. We have proof that Bran is unchained from time and this passage: "Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to hum suddenly. He asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. "No longer," he answered "but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world." "Was there one who was best of all?" "The finest fighter I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished had had asked him what he meant. -Bran CoKIt seems likely to me that Bran would want to know about Howland and what transpired at the Tourney and the Tower of Joy. We also have this from the Prince of Winterfell Chapter and Ramsey's sham wedding in aDwD: Upon the treetops, a crescent moon was floating in a dark sky half-obscured by mist, like an eye peering through a veil of silk...
Then the mists parted, like the curtain opening at a mummer show to reveal some new tableau. The heart tree appeared in front of them, it's bony limbs spread wide. Fallen leaves lay about the wide white trunk in drifts of red and brown. The ravens were the thickest here, muttering to one another in the murderers' secret tongue...
The weirwood's carved red eyes stared down at them, it's great red mouth open as if to laugh[/font]. ...
Winterfell's weirwood could be a standin for Raventree Hall in the way that Theon describes it. The danger of skinchanging another person is the damage it does to the mind (Hodor) and the reaction of the host in the first place.
awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Blackwood
Here's an interesting link concerning Bloodraven
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Post by min on Jul 28, 2016 19:35:26 GMT
I'm just going to put this out there and fill in the quotes later.
Do you recall when Sam takes an oath three times to keep his silence about Bran? Coldhands makes him swear to Bran, Jojen and himself to let people think that Bran is dead; so they won’t come looking for him. Sam ponders the strength of that promise and the power it exerts over him in keeping his lips sealed regardless of how badly he wants to tell Jon that he has seen Bran.
The world believes the boy is dead ... Let his bones lie undisturbed. We want no seekers coming after us. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me . - A SoS Sam Chapter 75
Who else do we know has had his lip sealed tight if it isn't Ned. Specifically he has never talked about Ashara Dayne or the Tourney at Harrenhal. The only time she is mentioned is when Catelyn brings it up early their marriage and he goes into a rage extracting a 'pledge of obedience' and it's never mentioned again and all the kitchen gossip stops. He completely silent when Cersei baits him with it after he confronts her about her offspring; suggesting that she flee as far away as possible before he tells Robert. Meera and Jojen point out how strange it is.
How did Ned's lips become sealed so strongly? That brings us to the Tower of Joy and Lyanna. In Ned's fever dream, she extracts three promises from him as well.
"Promise me, Ned... Promise me... Promise me."
What do we know about Lyanna? She's in a fever, has more of the wolf in, and she can only whisper. What do we know about Bran? He's unchained by time, the 3EC crow can come to you in a fever (i.e. Jojen); he whispers to Theon in the godswood and he can connect to you if you have the wolf blood (Jon).
I don't think it was Lyanna extracting three promises but future wierBran!
Bran is extracting promises to protect the children, a strong theme in Ned's POV. Who? Specifically Jon; whom Bran desperately begs the old gods to watch over; and the boy who must remain dead and hidden to the world - Aegon (R+L=A). The third child - Dany - since he sees Vaes Dothrak and the Mother of Mountains in his coma dream. Something that will become very important in Dany's future timeline.
Why do I say this is about the "children". Because of Sam's oath to two boys and Coldhands; who must represent the CotF. This may tie into the pact between the Starks and the Cotf.
Ned made his promises to Bran. Bran is the prince who is 'promised'. And Ned's lips are sealed, just like Sam Tarley.
I think this adds strength to the argument that Jon is Ned's son by Ashara.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 28, 2016 20:47:38 GMT
I don't think it was Lyanna extracting three promises but future wierBran! Min, you're blowing me away with your ideas lately, I really need to catch up! This in particular is leaving me dumbstruck, because of course Bran could warg a woman. Also I love that quote about letting the world believe the boy is dead. I often used that to support that Jon is Aegon - though I could never get the timeline to work. Fantastic connections min!
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 28, 2016 21:11:04 GMT
Also I love that quote about letting the world believe the boy is dead. I often used that to support that Jon is Aegon - though I could never get the timeline to work. But you know what? Rhaegar believed Aegon was 'the prince that was promised', 'his is the song of ice and fire' - if Aegon =/= Jon after all and the real Aegon is actually out there somewhere, Rhaegar may have hidden him long before the Trident - somewhere "far away", amirite? Recall that realAegon was supposedly born around late 281/early 282. By the time of the Sack in late 283, RealAegon would be close to 2yo or even over 2, not "a year, give a take a moon's turn or two". Also, there's a SSM out there where George confirms "The child in the [HOTU] vision is dead." And he IS dead....as far as the world is concerned, so no seekers can come for him. There is precedence for a royal sneaking their kid out of KL during a time of conflict - one of the Targs during the Dance split up his children. One was sent with a KG escort, and either that same one or the other one, I can't remember which, lived on Dragonstone as a commoner. The other was caught and killed. I have notes on this somewhere. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me. Min, I find this part of the quote interesting as well. Coldhands rescued Sam, the secret-keeper, from the wights. If Lyanna extracted a similar oath from Ned, whose life did he owe to her?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 28, 2016 21:18:52 GMT
Coldhands IS talking to Aegon
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 28, 2016 21:25:05 GMT
Coldhands IS talking to Aegon If your theory is true, that actually makes total sense.
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Post by min on Jul 28, 2016 22:18:02 GMT
Also I love that quote about letting the world believe the boy is dead. I often used that to support that Jon is Aegon - though I could never get the timeline to work. But you know what? Rhaegar believed Aegon was 'the prince that was promised', 'his is the song of ice and fire' - if Aegon =/= Jon after all and the real Aegon is actually out there somewhere, Rhaegar may have hidden him long before the Trident - somewhere "far away", amirite? Recall that realAegon was supposedly born around late 281/early 282. By the time of the Sack in late 283, RealAegon would be close to 2yo or even over 2, not "a year, give a take a moon's turn or two". Also, there's a SSM out there where George confirms "The child in the [HOTU] vision is dead." And he IS dead....as far as the world is concerned, so no seekers can come for him. There is precedence for a royal sneaking their kid out of KL during a time of conflict - one of the Targs during the Dance split up his children. One was sent with a KG escort, and either that same one or the other one, I can't remember which, lived on Dragonstone as a commoner. The other was caught and killed. I have notes on this somewhere. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me. Min, I find this part of the quote interesting as well. Coldhands rescued Sam, the secret-keeper, from the wights. If Lyanna extracted a similar oath from Ned, whose life did he owe to her? Didn't Rhaegar believes that he was the prince who was promised and then change his mind after a dream? Who do you suppose was responsible for changing his mind? LOL Ashara disappeared with someone's baby and Aegon isn't the only one who has to keep his identity a secret. (Septa Lemore). Death pays for life so his first son by Elia died so the second could live. "There must be one more."
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 28, 2016 22:22:27 GMT
He thought he himself was TWTWP until Aegon was conceived during a comet passing, he sort of felt that clinched it for his son. Something like that. Something he read in the scrolls over at Summerhall caused him to realize he needed to be a warrior and not a bookworm, though I'm not sure the scrolls were part of the PTWP thing? Hmm.
Ah and Cersei accused Ned of stealing a baby too. Gets better and better!
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Post by min on Jul 28, 2016 22:32:10 GMT
It does open up the question of repetitions of three being significant. Where do we see that if not in Mormont's raven and in prophecies. I'm just wondering what else could indicate a time or dream intrusion by Bran.
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Post by min on Jul 28, 2016 22:47:17 GMT
Min, I find this part of the quote interesting as well. Coldhands rescued Sam, the secret-keeper, from the wights. If Lyanna extracted a similar oath from Ned, whose life did he owe to her? The life you owe me - could be singular or plural. Coldhands saves Sam, Gilly and her baby. So three lives are owed by my math. Jon, fAegon and Dany are the lives Ned owes to keep three promises. I think when we talked about the story of Ned at the 3 sisters; Ashara and Aegon were on that trip and going across the Narrow Sea where Ned later suggest that Cersei should go. So in keeping with a pattern. He goes back to Winterfell with Wylla and Jon. Would be my take. But Bran also wants Dany protected and we see that come into play when he first disagrees with Robert on the way to Kingslanding. His language is very interesting. He tells Robert, she's just a child etc etc. It becomes the issue where he resigns as the Hand. That's almost like Jon Arryn refusing to break his pledge to protect Ned. There is a promise to protect in play where Dany is concerned. Well, I'm guessing.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 28, 2016 23:00:01 GMT
I'm wondering something, is the scene where Ned suggests Cersei run away across the narrow sea with her kids the same scene where she tries to seduce him, then accuses him of stealing a child from Ashara?
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