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Post by Ser Duncan on May 9, 2016 15:46:33 GMT
I had a strange thought on this the other day and thought I might mention it. I was thinking about the Dragon horn needs to be winded 3 times. But the effect on the blower is to be burnt up from the inside out. Moqorro thinks the effect can be ameliorated by using 3 men, rather than one. I wonder though, if the horn was winded by the correct person, as opposed to some rando, whether this would happen. I can't see the point of a horn that kills it's user if the point of the horn is to bind a dragon to you. So there seems an element of the worthiness of the person using it being involved.
Now if you apply the same values to the horn of winter, would whoever winded that horn freeze? Could that horn have the same, though opposite, effect on a body that the dragon horn has? Perhaps even not killing, but transforming the user into something neither dead nor alive, but sustained by the cold?
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Post by Melifeather on May 9, 2016 16:40:51 GMT
I had a strange thought on this the other day and thought I might mention it. I was thinking about the Dragon horn needs to be winded 3 times. But the effect on the blower is to be burnt up from the inside out. Moqorro thinks the effect can be ameliorated by using 3 men, rather than one. I wonder though, if the horn was winded by the correct person, as opposed to some rando, whether this would happen. I can't see the point of a horn that kills it's user if the point of the horn is to bind a dragon to you. So there seems an element of the worthiness of the person using it being involved. Now if you apply the same values to the horn of winter, would whoever winded that horn freeze? Could that horn have the same, though opposite, effect on a body that the dragon horn has? Perhaps even not killing, but transforming the user into something neither dead nor alive, but sustained by the cold? I've wondered the same myself, and even thought that since it was the slaves in the mines that found the dragon eggs in the first place AND these same slaves that left for Braavos and founded the faceless men, perhaps you have to be dead, or in their words "no one" in order to blow the horn? Jon is looking like he's already dead, so he should be eligible to blow anything that may freeze anyone else from the inside out, right?
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Post by min on May 9, 2016 16:49:27 GMT
I had a strange thought on this the other day and thought I might mention it. I was thinking about the Dragon horn needs to be winded 3 times. But the effect on the blower is to be burnt up from the inside out. Moqorro thinks the effect can be ameliorated by using 3 men, rather than one. I wonder though, if the horn was winded by the correct person, as opposed to some rando, whether this would happen. I can't see the point of a horn that kills it's user if the point of the horn is to bind a dragon to you. So there seems an element of the worthiness of the person using it being involved. Now if you apply the same values to the horn of winter, would whoever winded that horn freeze? Could that horn have the same, though opposite, effect on a body that the dragon horn has? Perhaps even not killing, but transforming the user into something neither dead nor alive, but sustained by the cold? That's what I'm thinking. Moqorro says the horn must be claimed and I wonder what that means. Dany, Bran and Arya all consume something that in a sense binds them or prepares them. I think of the horns as drinking cups of fire and ice. Mel talks about drinking "it" down and the kindly man tells Arya that pain the price of power. I am Dragonbinder ... No mortal man should sound me and live ... Blood for fire, fire for blood. So some kind of blood ritual; possibly already undertaken when Moqorro changed Victarion's arm and tells him the pain will be considerable. . I wonder if Jon is now prepared to wind the horn of winter. I think they are in a way cursed objects; that the power within them invades the one who claims it and if the claimant isn't prepared, you die. It goes back to the oath of the Night's Watch. They become the sword, the horn and the shield. In Jon's case, death is the price for life. If Sam's horn isn't the horn of winter; I think it will turn out to be the Night King's horn used to bind the night's watch with strange sorceries according to the stories. Sam will find out what it is and how to repair it with the help of the faceless man Pate/Alchemist is my guess. Will he sound it or take it back to Jon. Is Sam Tarley of Hornhill being set up as the new horned lord?
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 9, 2016 17:18:50 GMT
I've wondered the same myself, and even thought that since it was the slaves in the mines that found the dragon eggs in the first place AND these same slaves that left for Braavos and founded the faceless men, perhaps you have to be dead, or in their words "no one" in order to blow the horn? Jon is looking like he's already dead, so he should be eligible to blow anything that may freeze anyone else from the inside out, right? Yeah, that's were I was going with these thoughts. The person using them needs to be prepared. Like the dragonriders, they need to groom their dragons. So if we turn it about, then the person who uses the Horn of Winter would likewise need to be prepared or else they'll turn into wights. Maybe Jon's fire from his resurrection will protect him from freezing, should he use the horn. Hell, perhaps Melisandre could use it safely too, since she's got fire in her actual body. And that thought makes me wonder if the cold lot already have the horn, and that's what they're using to control the dead that have been raised. The word association is getting me too. You wind a horn, the Others control the wind. The horn may have already been winding all this time, but at a pitch humans and direwolves can't hear, like a dog whistle. Who knows if the CotF can hear it or not, it's not like they convey too much information to Bran in order to know.
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Post by Melifeather on May 9, 2016 17:27:26 GMT
Not sure if the Others control the wind or not. I think they take advantage of it, but I think it's just there. The goddess of the wind is one of the old gods who's magic was released when the hinge was opened, along with the god of the sea. Together they are the Drowned God. - an unproven theory as of yet of course...
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 9, 2016 17:29:48 GMT
That's what I'm thinking. Moqorro says the horn must be claimed and I wonder what that means. Dany, Bran and Arya all consume something that in a sense binds them or prepares them. I think of the horns as drinking cups of fire and ice. Mel talks about drinking "it" down and the kindly man tells Arya that pain the price of power. I am Dragonbinder ... No mortal man should sound me and live ... Blood for fire, fire for blood. So some kind of blood ritual; possibly already undertaken when Moqorro changed Victarion's arm and tells him the pain will be considerable. . I wonder if Jon is now prepared to wind the horn of winter. I think they are in a way cursed objects; that the power within them invades the one who claims it and if the claimant isn't prepared, you die. It goes back to the oath of the Night's Watch. They become the sword, the horn and the shield. In Jon's case, death is the price for life. If Sam's horn isn't the horn of winter; I think it will turn out to be the Night King's horn used to bind the night's watch with strange sorceries according to the stories. Sam will find out what it is and how to repair it with the help of the faceless man Pate/Alchemist is my guess. Will he sound it or take it back to Jon. Is Sam Tarley of Hornhill being set up as the new horned lord? I think there's a good case for Victarion being able to sound the horn. My question is could it be the opposite horn. If a horn burns the insides of an unworthy man, then would the worthy man be one that's drunk from the cup of ice? Beric says he tastes ashes in his mouth upon resurrection, so is he already a burnt man? Or does he have fire within him, sustaining his second life? If he, like Jon now, winded the horn of winter, would that fire within inoculate them from freezing? Or does fire prove against fire? Does one have to already have the fire within them in order to be fire proof from the dragon horn? Melisandre seems to fit the bill on the dragon horn. She's immortal, not a man, has given blood for fire and has fire for blood. If Joramun's horn has similar instructions then the only ones to be able to blow it safely would be the Others. Yeah, I know, I'm all over the place with this idea. Sorry.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 9, 2016 17:34:27 GMT
Not sure if the Others control the wind or not. I think they take advantage of it, but I think it's just there. I'm not 100% convinced of this either. The question of do they bring the cold or do they follow the cold is never resolved, just like the dark, so it remains ambiguous. In any case the only way to move cold around is through the air, and moving air is wind, so the wind is, in either case, associated with the Others.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 9, 2016 19:37:45 GMT
I had a strange thought on this the other day and thought I might mention it. I was thinking about the Dragon horn needs to be winded 3 times. But the effect on the blower is to be burnt up from the inside out. Moqorro thinks the effect can be ameliorated by using 3 men, rather than one. I wonder though, if the horn was winded by the correct person, as opposed to some rando, whether this would happen. I can't see the point of a horn that kills it's user if the point of the horn is to bind a dragon to you. So there seems an element of the worthiness of the person using it being involved. Now if you apply the same values to the horn of winter, would whoever winded that horn freeze? Could that horn have the same, though opposite, effect on a body that the dragon horn has? Perhaps even not killing, but transforming the user into something neither dead nor alive, but sustained by the cold? My theory is that human sacrifices are required to create a dragon bond. Probably three sacrifices (after all the dragon has three heads, re: psyches). The sacrifices blow the horn in turn, their psyches go into the dragon, and then the dragon will be bound to someone who presumably had some relationship (blood or otherwise) with the three who are sacrificed.
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Post by snowfyre on May 9, 2016 19:55:04 GMT
the Dragon horn needs to be winded 3 times Does it? I don't recall reading that, but it's possible I'm forgetting something.
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Post by min on May 9, 2016 21:01:58 GMT
That's what I'm thinking. Moqorro says the horn must be claimed and I wonder what that means. Dany, Bran and Arya all consume something that in a sense binds them or prepares them. I think of the horns as drinking cups of fire and ice. Mel talks about drinking "it" down and the kindly man tells Arya that pain the price of power. I am Dragonbinder ... No mortal man should sound me and live ... Blood for fire, fire for blood. So some kind of blood ritual; possibly already undertaken when Moqorro changed Victarion's arm and tells him the pain will be considerable. . I wonder if Jon is now prepared to wind the horn of winter. I think they are in a way cursed objects; that the power within them invades the one who claims it and if the claimant isn't prepared, you die. It goes back to the oath of the Night's Watch. They become the sword, the horn and the shield. In Jon's case, death is the price for life. If Sam's horn isn't the horn of winter; I think it will turn out to be the Night King's horn used to bind the night's watch with strange sorceries according to the stories. Sam will find out what it is and how to repair it with the help of the faceless man Pate/Alchemist is my guess. Will he sound it or take it back to Jon. Is Sam Tarley of Hornhill being set up as the new horned lord? I think there's a good case for Victarion being able to sound the horn. My question is could it be the opposite horn. If a horn burns the insides of an unworthy man, then would the worthy man be one that's drunk from the cup of ice? Beric says he tastes ashes in his mouth upon resurrection, so is he already a burnt man? Or does he have fire within him, sustaining his second life? If he, like Jon now, winded the horn of winter, would that fire within inoculate them from freezing? Or does fire prove against fire? Does one have to already have the fire within them in order to be fire proof from the dragon horn? Melisandre seems to fit the bill on the dragon horn. She's immortal, not a man, has given blood for fire and has fire for blood. If Joramun's horn has similar instructions then the only ones to be able to blow it safely would be the Others. Yeah, I know, I'm all over the place with this idea. Sorry. What I keep circling around is whether or not Joramun's Horn and the the Horn of Winter are two separate horns that were both in his possession. One which wakes the sleepers on the wall and the other that wakes giants in the earth. Both waking sleepers; the small horn of the type that the watchmen carry on the wall to wake their brothers or signal for friend or foe. One blast, rangers returning, second and third blast... I don't remember. LOL. These horns are identified with the person who owns them... that's so and so's horn. I make the small broken horn that Jon finds with one of these horns. Especially since it is grouped with defensive objects. But it's broken and banded with runes. That seems a warning given the runes on Dragonbinder. I think it's the Night King's horn used to bind the brothers of the watch with strange sorcery. That's the version the victor's give us and perhaps the horn was broken by them to break the sorcery and so it couldn't be used again. Perhaps it's purpose was to wake dead 'sleepers' and bind them to the horn's owner. How many night's watchmen were consigned to ice cells? Perhaps the justice dispensed to the 79 sentinels for desertion has a precedent set from an earlier time. The second great horn that's Mance turns over to Mel and claims is Joramun's horn also. Further, Val says that Joramun warned about winding it again. This is folklore that the wildlings have that others do not. This one wakes giants in the earth and is tied to securing the Wall. Jon wonders if winding the horn will put the giants back to sleep, which seems a likely reason why Joramun would warn against it. That and the liklihood that a mortal would die blowing it. I don't think Mel destroyed that horn. There was another great horn on top of the wall. I think she exchanged them and glamored it for theatrics. She has truth serums after all. So what does this make Joramun? The one who's name has been expunged from the records on one side of the Wall but not the other side, the Horned Lord, the Night's King, the King of the North? Was he really a bad guy or just a dead Stark? If you are iced like Jon; I think you have immunity and can claim the horn and blow it. Same with Mel or Moqorro and Dragonbinder.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 10, 2016 0:42:30 GMT
the Dragon horn needs to be winded 3 times Does it? I don't recall reading that, but it's possible I'm forgetting something. Yes, it does. That's why Moqorro tells Victarion to pick three strong men from among his crew and tell them they each need to blow it once, in the hopes that the horn won't consume them the way it consumed the guy at the Kingsmoot.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 10, 2016 0:45:22 GMT
One blast, rangers returning, second and third blast... I don't remember. LOL. One blast rangers returning; two blasts for wildlings; and three blasts for the Others and wights.
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 10, 2016 0:55:24 GMT
A video of wolf howls that is pretty cool. I especially like the first group. youtu.be/op7fRsvWowAComparing a wolf howl and a horn sound.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 10, 2016 0:58:17 GMT
I make the small broken horn that Jon finds with one of these horns. Especially since it is grouped with defensive objects. But it's broken and banded with runes. That seems a warning given the runes on Dragonbinder. I think it's the Night King's horn used to bind the brothers of the watch with strange sorcery. That's the version the victor's give us and perhaps the horn was broken by them to break the sorcery and so it couldn't be used again. Perhaps it's purpose was to wake dead 'sleepers' and bind them to the horn's owner. How many night's watchmen were consigned to ice cells? Perhaps the justice dispensed to the 79 sentinels for desertion has a precedent set from an earlier time. I've wondered that too. What if it is to wake the sentinels froze to the Wall? It would seem to fit, since the NW's are the horn that wakes the sleepers. And definitely something different about the horn Jon finds and gives to Sam. The runes, as you said, around the band make it different to the everyday horns of the modern Watch. I'm not sure that's Joramun's horn either. I like the idea that it was the Night's King's worn, since you'd think a lord commander would have a fancier horn to the rest of the men. The second great horn that's Mance turns over to Mel and claims is Joramun's horn also. Further, Val says that Joramun warned about winding it again. This is folklore that the wildlings have that others do not. This one wakes giants in the earth and is tied to securing the Wall. Jon wonders if winding the horn will put the giants back to sleep, which seems a likely reason why Joramun would warn against it. That and the liklihood that a mortal would die blowing it. I don't think Mel destroyed that horn. There was another great horn on top of the wall. I think she exchanged them and glamored it for theatrics. She has truth serums after all. I don't remember Val warning Jon about the horn. I'll have to reread that whole section with Val in it, she says lots of things no one south of the Wall knows about. Stannis tell Jon that Mance gave him lots of information, that's a knowledgeable man. Well, Mance is just a crow who flew over the Wall as an adult, how much more would Val know having lived there her whole life and probably gotten tales from her mother, that in turn she got from hers, and so on.
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Post by snowfyre on May 10, 2016 1:09:39 GMT
Does it? I don't recall reading that, but it's possible I'm forgetting something. Yes, it does. That's why Moqorro tells Victarion to pick three strong men from among his crew and tell them they each need to blow it once, in the hopes that the horn won't consume them the way it consumed the guy at the Kingsmoot. In the book, really? I just don't recall that. The "blow it thrice" bit, I mean. But I suppose Victarion's not on the show?
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