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Post by Ser Duncan on May 7, 2016 20:30:50 GMT
I wonder if the idea behind "the bones remember" come from people gaining some aspect of "personality" after an organ transplant. I have read more than once people who had an organ transplant they gained some likes and dislikes. If the idea is that someone's body is fitted to their soul then the body will maybe "remember" some aspects of a person's likes and dislikes. Yes, I've actually seen this happen first hand. I knew a guy, a farmer in the West Country, who was the calmest, most moderate person I'd ever met and after a kidney transplant he became combative and aggressive with everyone. But I think Melifeather would know more about it than I do The idea of the bones remember comes from Melisandre in Dance with Dragons. She's talking about glamours, and how having something of the person you are wanting to look like helps. She tells Mance that he should be wearing Rattleshirts bone armour, they help the illusion more because the 'bones remember'. There's a line about having a bag of finger bones to help with the illusion created by the glamour as well.
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Post by Melifeather on May 7, 2016 20:35:07 GMT
I wonder if the idea behind "the bones remember" come from people gaining some aspect of "personality" after an organ transplant. I have read more than once people who had an organ transplant they gained some likes and dislikes. If the idea is that someone's body is fitted to their soul then the body will maybe "remember" some aspects of a person's likes and dislikes. But someone tell me something. How do we know "wights" remember things, I must have missed that. P I'll have to ask my boyfriend! lol, since he's a kidney transplant recipient. We met the couple that we exchanged kidneys with. The wife got one of my kidneys, and her husband gave his to my boyfriend. The husband has a big bushy mustache and I teased my bf that he was going to grow a porn-stache! Melisandre is one that repeats "the bones remember" and some even suspect she took Davos's finger bones. The wights Othor and Jafer seemed to know their way around Castle Black, so it seems implied that they remembered their previous lives as Watchmen.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 7, 2016 20:38:39 GMT
But someone tell me something. How do we know "wights" remember things, I must have missed that. P The actions of the wights that get brought into Castle Black show us that wights still retain a certain amount of who they were while alive. When Othor and Jaffer wake up, they both go for the top echelon of power. Othor knows where Mormont is and kills only those that get in his way. Jaffer goes and actually manages to kill the acting First Ranger. So from the looks of things, they both remembered where Mormont and Ryker (can't remember how to spell his name) are and go directly to them. Clearly, they remember the who and where of the power structure of the Night's Watch.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 7, 2016 20:40:50 GMT
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 8, 2016 3:40:43 GMT
I don't know that wights truly remember much... I mean, there is something there- Small Paul, Thistle. Saying that I will say this. Why would Othor and Jafer want to kill their NW brothers? I never understood that. I can understand the visual identification through the eyes of the wight, but the motivation of the wight is all wrong in the Othor and Jafer. Unless you take Edd's words to heart that the dead are never happy with their lot.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 8, 2016 4:44:35 GMT
I don't know that wights truly remember much... I mean, there is something there- Small Paul, Thistle. Saying that I will say this. Why would Othor and Jafer want to kill their NW brothers? Short answer -- they're being controlled by the Cold. Coldhands is not, but that doesn't necessarily rule out his being controlled by someone or something else. Mind you, I doubt it. I think he's his own agent, unlike all the other wights with shiny blue eyes/sockets.
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Post by Paulus on May 8, 2016 5:24:27 GMT
The actions of the wights that get brought into Castle Black show us that wights still retain a certain amount of who they were while alive. When Othor and Jaffer wake up, they both go for the top echelon of power. Othor knows where Mormont is and kills only those that get in his way. Jaffer goes and actually manages to kill the acting First Ranger. So from the looks of things, they both remembered where Mormont and Ryker (can't remember how to spell his name) are and go directly to them. Clearly, they remember the who and where of the power structure of the Night's Watch. Yes but this could also be due to the controlling power also knowing this. Its not cut and dried that it is the two dead rangers who are doing the remembering. If anything what is happening to the wights is akin to demonic possession.
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Post by Paulus on May 8, 2016 5:25:27 GMT
The husband has a big bushy mustache and I teased my bf that he was going to grow a porn-stache! If he didn't that's a total fail. If I donate my kidney to some bloke and he doesn't grow a respectable beard I will take my kidney back. xD
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Post by Melifeather on May 8, 2016 13:45:37 GMT
It is the cold wind that animates the dead wights, but it's not skinchanging them. It's using what small amount of spirit that remains in the bones and resuscitating them, albeit if temporarily. Filling them with air not unlike the "holy spirit" and using their memories to move them.
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Post by Melifeather on May 8, 2016 15:00:55 GMT
What is the "frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell"?
I've got a theory formulating that may apply to Coldhands, and came from trying to figure out how Jon was raised on the show. Through my work on the inversion project it appears that the religion of the ironborn now applies to the north. The north is the sea, the Nights Watch are the drowned men followers, and the Drowned God seems to reside north too. Followers of the Drowned God can be resuscitated from the dead, and rise again stronger, harder.
Varamyr's tether to his body was severed, because he was outside his body when it died. If Jon never left his body, then he was resuscitated by the life giving cold air of the Drowned God. I am thinking this is what happens to all Stark wargs when they die. This is the frozen hell reserved for Starks. It is as if they are frozen and unable to leave their dead bodies, and it's because of the magical cold air "freezing" them in place.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 8, 2016 15:30:06 GMT
Yes but this could also be due to the controlling power also knowing this. Its not cut and dried that it is the two dead rangers who are doing the remembering. If anything what is happening to the wights is akin to demonic possession. I won't say it's not possible the cold knows there's a Lord Commander, nor that it knows he resides at Castle Black, after all, most wildlings would know about as much. However, how did Othor know exactly where to find his personal chambers? How did Jafer know who was acting First Ranger after Benjen disappeared if it wasn't already something known to all Rangers who the next First Ranger was likely to be? Why does Small Paul go for Sam, if he didn't still have some of that resentment from earlier when he was working with the conspirators? And Thistle, how does she look directly at Varamyr in One-Eye if whatever is animating her is the one doing the thinking alone? Bran in Summer has encountered plenty of wights, and not one of them have given him the impression they recognise him. Not even for a warg. I wouldn't rule out that the cold is using what it finds in the bodies of the possessed, but even that depends upon the dead having these memories still within them to begin with.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 8, 2016 17:32:43 GMT
It is the cold wind that animates the dead wights, but it's not skinchanging them. I don't know about that. It's curious because Thistle herself is not a skinchanger, but Varamyr reacts to her looking at him in a similar way to when he encounters Bran in Summer. Skinchangers, even the ones that aren't as far along in their gift, recognise each other upon meeting. Jon does with the boar bloke, and Jon doesn't actively skinchange Ghost yet. So how does Thistle recognise Varamyr unless what's inside her is a form of skinchanging too?
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 8, 2016 17:38:16 GMT
Varamyr's tether to his body was severed, because he was outside his body when it died. If Jon never left his body, then he was resuscitated by the life giving cold air of the Drowned God. I am thinking this is what happens to all Stark wargs when they die. This is the frozen hell reserved for Starks. It is as if they are frozen and unable to leave their dead bodies, and it's because of the magical cold air "freezing" them in place. In other words they can no longer skinchange into their wolves, or anything else. Yes that would be hell for the Starks that were wargs. To be trapped in their bodies and still have to go about as if living is quite a punishment for one used to leaving their bodies like Bran does. It would horrible for him to endure being in a broken body for eternity. As horrible as it sounds, I like it.
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Post by Melifeather on May 8, 2016 17:55:50 GMT
It is the cold wind that animates the dead wights, but it's not skinchanging them. I don't know about that. It's curious because Thistle herself is not a skinchanger, but Varamyr reacts to her looking at him in a similar way to when he encounters Bran in Summer. Skinchangers, even the ones that aren't as far along in their gift, recognise each other upon meeting. Jon does with the boar bloke, and Jon doesn't actively skinchange Ghost yet. So how does Thistle recognise Varamyr unless what's inside her is a form of skinchanging too? I understand what you are saying here, but Thistle's spirit is yet in her bones and couldn't it be her that was looking at Varamyr?
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 8, 2016 18:14:07 GMT
I understand what you are saying here, but Thistle's spirit is yet in her bones and couldn't it be her that was looking at Varamyr? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Thistle is the only one that could possibly recognise Varamyr because she knew him. But she's not a skinchanger, so how could she recognise a warg within a wolf? We have the example of Bran in Summer encountering Varamyr too. Both of them recognise each other for what they are. Meaning Bran, the presence within Summer, recognises a warg when he sees one. So the Cold inside Thistle recognises that One-Eye is housing a warg, but it's Thistle who recognises the warg is Varamyr. See what I mean? On her own, or if she was alive, she wouldn't have recognise him at all, because she can't, she's not a skinchanger.
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