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Post by Ser Duncan on May 24, 2016 2:40:10 GMT
Also, Hodor and Lyanna had a moment last week. Heh. If only I could decipher what they said. When was this? Was it before they tried to get Willas to fight, and they exchange how they know when both Ned and Benjen are about to strike?
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 24, 2016 3:14:49 GMT
The Hodor flashback is kinda weird this episode. Meera is bleeding through to past-Hodor from the present Hodor through Bran. I wasn't sure who exactly was doing what. Is Hodor a skinchanger too?
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Post by wolfmaid7 on May 24, 2016 5:37:22 GMT
The Hodor flashback is kinda weird this episode. Meera is bleeding through to past-Hodor from the present Hodor through Bran. I wasn't sure who exactly was doing what. Is Hodor a skinchanger too? I mentioned this on SH as a dream i had,but with all this time traveling wouldn't it be crazy if Bran and Meera are Jon's parents?
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 24, 2016 9:23:16 GMT
Bran and Meera are Jon's parents That's part of my Bran the Timelord thing. Bran/Hodor and Meera are a real possibility. And now I'm thinking Bran/Hodor and Lyanna. (Ack)
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Post by Melifeather on May 24, 2016 10:48:37 GMT
A poster on the Heresy Branch office 05 said that they thought since the Nights King touched Bran's arm that if Bran goes south of the Wall, they'll be able to follow him through. I think this was a brilliant insight and probably exactly what the show is trying to demonstrate: that the warding on the Wall will be opened by Bran.
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 24, 2016 11:32:25 GMT
A poster on the Heresy Branch office 05 said that they thought since the Nights King touched Bran's arm that if Bran goes south of the Wall, they'll be able to follow him through. I think this was a brilliant insight and probably exactly what the show is trying to demonstrate: that the warding on the Wall will be opened by Bran. Didn't Ser Duncan say the same thing here? Show-wise, I'd say this could be the ticket to the south. Or through Jon south of the Wall.
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Post by Melifeather on May 24, 2016 12:00:36 GMT
A poster on the Heresy Branch office 05 said that they thought since the Nights King touched Bran's arm that if Bran goes south of the Wall, they'll be able to follow him through. I think this was a brilliant insight and probably exactly what the show is trying to demonstrate: that the warding on the Wall will be opened by Bran. Didn't Ser Duncan say the same thing here? Show-wise, I'd say this could be the ticket to the south. Or through Jon south of the Wall. I went back a page and you're right! Apologies to Dunc! I must be losing it.
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Post by Melifeather on May 24, 2016 12:09:12 GMT
Just had a new thought...going off the idea that the wheel of time is going in reverse... do you suppose it was the Andals that built the Wall after they defeated the First Men AND the Children? My thoughts aren't fully fleshed, but is anybody following my train of thought? I'm expecting Dany will stay in Essos as the mother of all dragons. Euron fails to bring dragons or else he fails to conquer with dragons. The Faith (Andals) takes over Westeros only to be defeated by the Others (First Men). So if this cycle is correct, wouldn't that mean that the Wall was built by Andals? Furthermore, wouldn't this mean that they were the ones that signed the Pact?
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Post by ac on May 24, 2016 12:46:09 GMT
Did D&D choose a course that makes for good TV? If it doesn't change the ultimate end, maybe so. Right. I'm not putting down the show, necessarily. From the reactions I've seen online, it sounds like everyone loved the episode. Can you elaborate on why you doubt this possibility? ...if you can provide a brief synopsis I would be most interested. Is there something in the books that automatically precludes it? Sure. I do think that Martin's story precludes this from being a logical explanation in the novels. And you'll have to correct me if I've misunderstood the explanation presented by HBO - since I didn't see it myself - but basically, it boils down the issue of timelines. In the books, per generally accepted timelines, we have the following sequence of events: - CotF exist in Westeros for eons.
- ~12,000 years ago - First Men arrive with horses, bronze swords, and fire.
- ...CotF war against First Men for thousands of years... cannot win. In fact, are losing.
- ~10,000 yrs ago... The Pact is forged by CotF and First Men, begins 4,000 years of peace and friendship.
- ~8,000 yrs ago... Now the Others show up, and are eventually defeated. The Long Night happens, ends. House Stark and Night's Watch established.
- ...the Pact continues, for another couple thousand years
- ~6,000 yrs ago... (or later, but certainly no earlier) the Andals arrive in Westeros
- ...Andals proceed to war against First Men and the CotF. Weirwoods are destroyed; CotF are killed or driven away... flee north
During thousands of years of warfare against the First Men... no Others. During a time of peace between FM and CotF after the Pact... Others and the Long Night. Following the Long Night, with both CotF and FM once again living side by side in Westeros... no Others. And then, when the Andals arrive thousands of years later to wage war against the CoTF... no Others.
So basically, the question that has to be answered - if the Others were a creation of the CoTF - is why the Others would have appeared when they did, and neither before nor since. Because we may quibble about the exact dates for some of these events, but assuming the general sequence of the timeline is correct then the Others were deployed when least needed... and held back when they'd have been most helpful to the CotF.
Add to that some of the things we've seen taking place in Martin's current narrative, and it's clear (to me, at least) that there will be a more satisfying explanation in the books. For one thing... and stepping back to a consideration of his overarching theme... Martin's said from the outset that this story, as Faulkner prescribed, is a story about the conflict(s) of the human heart. Which, of course, is not to say there are no monsters in the tale. Quite the opposite, obviously. But the point is that the monster is a human creation. And the horrors of the past... are our horrors, from our past, which we ultimately must confront and overcome (or accept) ourselves. That's the tragedy and the challenge of the Other and the Self.
And there may be more than one useful, famous quote by Faulkner here. Two, at least, seem clearly relevant to me:
- "The problems of the human heart in conflict with itself... alone can make good writing because only that is worth writing about, worth the agony and the sweat." And...
- "The past is never dead. It's not even past."
My theory on this has always been that the Others show up as an unexpected side-effect of magic used by the CotF to fight against the FM. I think this theory can jive with what we saw in the show and also fit the timeline snowfyre mentions. I think that the Land of Always Winter as we see it in the story today was created by the CotF as their final attempt to fight back against the FM. Imagine an ice magic version the Hammer of Water magic. This ever-encroaching winter is what scares the FM in to signing the pact with the CotF and ending the war. If this is right then what we see in the Bran's first flashback could be a human sacrifice (maybe one of many) that was required to summon the magic. Notice how in that flashback it is lovely and sunny but in the next flashback (to today?) when Bran meets the Night's King it is more like the Land of Always Winter we now know. In the flashback we see the eyes turn blue but we don't get to see how the CotF react to this. Was it something they expected? With regards to the gap between the "creation" of the Others and the Long Night I think it is quite reasonable to assume that at the point of their creation they had no idea of their powers (e.g. ability to raise and control the dead). I won't be surprised if we later find out that the Other we saw created was essentially a Human in behaviour who likes the cold. Because of this they were allowed to live out their time in the newly created Land of Always Winter. Over time they began to learn about and understand their powers. And over more time become corrupted by this power and decide to move south, beginning the Long Winter. Additionally, if there were multiple sacrifices / Others created simultaneously they still may not have known about each other. And so the time required to randomly come across each other wandering around would also account for a big chunk of the couple of thousand years between the pact and the Long Night. Equally, realising they are part of a "species" could also have been a contributing factor in their decision to move south.
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Post by snowfyre on May 24, 2016 12:51:27 GMT
The Hodor flashback is kinda weird this episode. Meera is bleeding through to past-Hodor from the present Hodor through Bran. I wasn't sure who exactly was doing what. Is Hodor a skinchanger too? The whole thing seems completely bizarre to me, and reminds me why I quit watching 2+ years ago. Did NotBloodRaven actually give an explanation for greenseeing, in the show? Would have been sometime this season, right? I just watched most of that last 10 minute segment of Bran's story, on YouTube. And y'all are just gonna tell me to shut up and go watch the episodes, but it raises all kinds of questions for me. Like... is Summer a white wolf? And... ye Olde King o' Night can walk through fire? And... have wights always been so easily defeated on the show? In the books, they're practically indestructible until lit afire - but show-wights aren't particularly flammable and collapse into a heap of bones if you so much as breathe on them. Which leaves me wondering how they were capable of clawing Hodor to death, there at the end. Do they sharpen their finger bones? Theory: I think the prospect of Jon and Meera being twins (on the show) seems about 50-50, based just on hair-do evidence. Add to that their mutually uncanny ability to shatter White Walkers at a single blow, and it just seems likely, doesn't it?
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 24, 2016 12:56:31 GMT
I watched it last night, and I can't really decide how I feel about the show. I read an interview where the show runners claim that Martin revealed to them that this was the origin of Hodor's name. I honestly hope that isn't true for two reasons. The first reason, is because I was first introduced to this idea as a joke thread on Westeros; this is causing me to have a hard time taking the reveal as seriously as it deserves.
But the second reason is a bigger deal considering how much time I've invested in the story. If this reveal is going to occur in the books, the show has robbed the series of a good deal of its impact. I realize now, that if the show and the book are going to the same endpoint, the show is going to get there first, it's going to get there less artfully, and it's going to hurt the emotional investment that I've put into the book series. I have a hard time believing that this is how Martin wanted his story to unfold (I suppose the truckloads of money helps a bit). It's certainly not how I wanted to discover the answer to the story's mysteries.
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Post by ac on May 24, 2016 13:18:54 GMT
I watched it last night, and I can't really decide how I feel about the show. I read an interview where the show runners claim that Martin revealed to them that this was the origin of Hodor's name. I honestly hope that isn't true for two reasons. The first reason, is because I was first introduced to this idea as a joke thread on Westeros; this is causing me to have a hard time taking the reveal as seriously as it deserves. But the second reason is a bigger deal considering how much time I've invested in the story. If this reveal is going to occur in the books, the show has robbed the series of a good deal of its impact. I realize now, that if the show and the book are going to the same endpoint, the show is going to get their first, it's going to get there less artfully, and it's going to hurt the emotional investment that I've put into the book series. I have a hard time believing that this is how Martin wanted his story to unfold (I suppose the truckloads of money helps a bit). It's certainly not how I wanted to discover the answer to the story's mysteries. The other possibility now is that, regardless of GRRM's original idea for the story, he is going to be able to make changes based on reaction to the show. I have a feeling that that can only end up being a bad thing for the books.
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Post by ac on May 24, 2016 13:31:53 GMT
The Hodor flashback is kinda weird this episode. Meera is bleeding through to past-Hodor from the present Hodor through Bran. I wasn't sure who exactly was doing what. Is Hodor a skinchanger too? I'm still clinging to the hope that Bran can't change the past. And at the moment my only theory to counter what it looked like in the episode is that Hodor's condition is a setup by Bloodraven when he was living in that time period. I saw a quote on this forum, I think in the Bran the Timelord thread, where the show's writers said this season would be "Inception-y". At least on that thread the interpretation was that Bran would be changing the past by planting ideas in people's heads but I wonder if this could all be a way of Bloodraven (maybe working with someone else) planting an idea in Bran's head. Afterall, we didn't actually see Bloodraven get killed by the Others.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 24, 2016 13:55:47 GMT
At least on that thread the interpretation was that Bran would be changing the past by planting ideas in people's heads I don't see it that way at all. More like, Bran has already created the past that we've heard so much about. He's reliving the stories.
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Post by snowfyre on May 24, 2016 14:03:36 GMT
I watched it last night, and I can't really decide how I feel about the show. I read an interview where the show runners claim that Martin revealed to them that this was the origin of Hodor's name. I honestly hope that isn't true for two reasons. The first reason, is because I was first introduced to this idea as a joke thread on Westeros; this is causing me to have a hard time taking the reveal as seriously as it deserves. But the second reason is a bigger deal considering how much time I've invested in the story. If this reveal is going to occur in the books, the show has robbed the series of a good deal of its impact. I realize now, that if the show and the book are going to the same endpoint, the show is going to get their first, it's going to get there less artfully, and it's going to hurt the emotional investment that I've put into the book series. I have a hard time believing that this is how Martin wanted his story to unfold (I suppose the truckloads of money helps a bit). It's certainly not how I wanted to discover the answer to the story's mysteries. You're speaking my language, FFR. But as I've watched (or read reviews and recaps on how) this season unfold(s) on HBO, I've grown increasingly sure that Martin did not share the major answers and spoilers with Benioff and Weiss. Among other reasons, this comment by Weiss on "Inside the Episode" stands out: - "We had this meeting with George Martin where we’re trying to get as much information as possible out of him, and probably the most shocking revelation he had for us was when he told us the origin of Hodor and how that name came about. I just remember Dan and I looking at each other when he said that and just being like, ‘Holy s–t.’ "
I heard that, and immediately thought: Really? That was the "most shocking revelation" Martin had for you? Clearly, Martin has allowed them to draw their own conclusions on many of the larger, more significant mysteries in his story. Otherwise, they'd have had a few more notable surprises - and the "Hodor" revelation would be put in perspective as relatively small potatoes. Otherwise, I do think Martin would have preferred to tell certain aspects of the story before HBO... he's made that clear publicly this past year, and I take him at his word. But I also think he's had artistic incentive (not just financial incentive) to withhold untold portions of his tale from HBO, and to cut them loose to tell the rest of the story their own way. Consider: he's sold HBO the rights to his published work. To the extent he considers his story intellectual property, and to the extent he values his personal legacy... he wants to define it on his own terms. He's long said, publicly, that he'd never do what Robert Jordan did, and allow another other author to finish his books in the event he dies before they're complete. Obviously, he can't prevent HBO from finishing their television series... because he sold them certain rights. What he can do is withhold the unwritten story he's planned, and force them to conclude the tale on their own. Once they've finished, he can write the rest of his own story without having to compete. If this was his strategy, then given how the past two HBO seasons have gone, it looks to me like this was a smart move. He's always said he wanted to write a story that couldn't be told on screen - bigger, broader in scope both geographically and in narrative time. Something that exceeded the limitations of screenwriting and television/movie budgetary restrictions. Well, HBO called his bluff on the budgetary stuff... and has been wildly successful in capturing the imagination of viewers worldwide. But Martin wants something more, I think. He wants that legendary twist for his books. And he wants full credit. So, in my opinion, he's holding out for the last word.
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