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Post by Weasel Pie on May 19, 2016 2:33:56 GMT
Not sure where I'm going with this, except to say it ties in with Bran the Timelord and various other crazy ideas.
My primary focus is Rhaegar at both the Tourney of Harrenhal and the Trident. I don't think he was present at either event. If he was present at the ToH, I think Bran occupied him, or he was under some sort of influence otherwise. But I'm 99% sure he was not killed on the Trident.
Orell could skinchange with an eagle. His physical body stayed alive although his consciousness went into the eagle, and partially survived there after the death of Orell's body. We Haggon, Borroq, Briar and Grisella were likely similar, but I want to talk about Varamyr.
Varamyr: 3 wolves, a shadow cat, a snow bear and Orell's eagle, then Thistle, and One-Eye
After he claims Orell's eagle, Mel fireballs it, and Varamyr goes insane and loses control of the snow cat and the bear. This supposes that Varamyr could retain control of multiple creatures at the same time.
Of course we know Bloodraven can control many... maybe thousands of others... concurrently.
We know human bones and faces retain their own memories, and can be used for glamouring/face-changing. So it would be possible to use someone's face to appear to be them, while someone else used their hair-clippings or old boots as a glamour, to also appear to be them.
So. A Faceless Man could have used Rhaegar's face (if he were dead). Or a glamour could have been created from any number of Rhaegarish flotsam and jetsam. Or Bran (or BR) could have skinchanged him.
Rhaegar lives. In what form? That's the question.
And if a human skinchanges another human, and the skinchanger dies, part of him would live on in the skinchanged human. If Bran died, part of Bran would live on in Hodor, two people occupying the same body. So that's another way "Rhaegar" could be alive.
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Post by Melifeather on May 19, 2016 4:00:26 GMT
I thought there was discussion of a successful tower of joy ritual? Couldn't he have gone north after that?
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 19, 2016 15:58:59 GMT
We know human bones and faces retain their own memories, and can be used for glamouring/face-changing. So it would be possible to use someone's face to appear to be them, while someone else used their hair-clippings or old boots as a glamour, to also appear to be them. This is interesting and makes me wonder, who was Rhaegar's squire? Did he have a squire? Someone definitely needs to help him in and out of his armour. The reason I ask is because the person closest to him would be the most likely candidate for a glamoured Rhaegar. As we see with Dunk, a squire learns all about the lord he serves, so much so as to imitate him. The other suspicion is one of the King's Guards would be able to do it too. He's closest with Arthur, so in some cases it may have been him. However, at Harrenhal, doesn't he defeat Dayne in the Joust? That wouldn't work them because we'd need two glamours. And Jaime's thoughts never betray his going directly back to King's Landing, which is a shame because we also know Jaime is an excellent jouster, and the only KG not to be at ToH. The only problem with Rhaegar being at the ToJ himself is the timing. I suppose it could be possible for him to've gone south, instead of north after having spoken with Jaime in King's Landing, and sent a double to the Trident to fight Robert, but what on earth was he doing the whole time in a ruined old tower? It would mean they were there for more than a month. Not to mention, there is no KG unaccounted for during that time to assume Rhaegar's role. Although, saying that, is it possible that Arthur and Rhaegar switched identities? Arthur goes to the Trident and Rhaegar stays at the tower, with Dawn as the piece of Arthur for the glamour and Rhaegar's armour for the other glamour? |
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Post by Melifeather on May 19, 2016 16:35:47 GMT
The Queenmaker chapter does imply that Arthur escaped and went into hiding. Whether he's Lem Lemoncloak or a fake Rhaegar, I'm on board with this idea.
Rhaegar's squire was Lonmouth, yes?
I think it's possible Rhaegar got someone else to wear his armor...no glamour required.
There does seem to be implied evidence that some sort of blood and fire magic was performed at the tower of joy, and I'm suspicious of the men that Ned came upon. I think his thoughts about not seeing the Kingsguard anywhere else has affected his dream.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 19, 2016 19:13:08 GMT
I'm suspicious of the men that Ned came upon. I think his thoughts about not seeing the Kingsguard anywhere else has affected his dream. Yes that's what got me thinking too. Why would he 'chance' upon them in the Prince's Pass? The absence of these three from all the fighting probably did pray on Ned's mind while cleaning up after the Trident. I don't know quite how factual the conversation was between them either. I mean, fever or not, it's a dream. |
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 21, 2016 0:44:49 GMT
Destroyer armor, people! LOL But really, I am totally on board that either 1) the guy in the black dragon suit with the chest caved in wasn't Rhaegar, or 2) it was Rhaegar, but he was resurrected somewhere between Saltpans and the TOJ. I hadn't really considered Bloodraven possibly Coldhandsing him or Rhaegar himself possibly being a skinchanger hiding out in an animal until he found a more suitable meat suit, but you guys know I could get on board with that pretty quickly.  I do find it intriguing that squire Myles Mooton was killed at the Trident, but no one knows what happened to Richard Lonmouth. He could be Lem Lemoncloak, I don't disregard that theory, but I'm also thinking of Ned Dayne pulling the dying Beric Dondarrion out of the river at the Battle of Mummer's Ford, and standing over his body defending it from all foes "as the battle raged around them". And we know what happened to Beric... Random crackpot thought: a knight's squire assists with putting on the armor, but also taking it off. A squire very familiar with his knight's armor could do that fairly quickly. He might even look like a random person scavenging the body for bits and pieces of useful weaponry while doing so. Could we possibly have an armor-swap on our hands here? Like, literally, Richard Lonmouth taking the armor off of his dying friend and putting it on another body of similar size and hair color before dragging his master to safety? |
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 21, 2016 12:43:55 GMT
We've got plenty of precedence for an armor swap no matter what. Garlan in Renly's armor, for example. Or Rorge wearing Sandor's helm.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 21, 2016 12:47:27 GMT
Part of my thinking with this thread is if two consciousnesses can share a body in a more willing and interactive way than we've seen. Thistle/Varamyr didn't work at all. Bran/Hodor sort of works, but Hodor retreats. As we've dug into a bit with the Robb/Cat thread... would Cat, knowing Robb was killed, welcome his consciousness in her body if he ended up there? I think she would.
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Post by Melifeather on May 21, 2016 13:35:57 GMT
Bran thinks that together he and Hodor would make a great knight. He'd have Hodor's strength and size and his own mental prowess. Is this foreshadowing of something in the future, or had it already happened in the past?
I had started a thread on Westeros called The Abomination and the Quiet Wolf, but when I tried to find it on google the link took me to some chat thread about appliances! How the heck does that happen?
I think the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is about how Ned and Howland cooperated to make one great knight with help from the old gods. My point is that the crannogman wanted a way for himself to win, and that having someone champion for him would have been less satisfying in terms of getting revenge for being disrespected. The crannogman was said to have been bold, smaller than most, but just as proud. The crannogman slept in the quiet wolf's tent, and before going to bed that night he prayed to the old gods for a way to win. IMO Ned skin changed Howland like Bran did Hodor, only this time instead of forcing a way in, the inverse occurred and Howland allowed it to happen. The reason why Ned never told this story is because it involved skinchanging and he may not have wanted anyone to know that the old gods helped him do such a thing, because it's thought of as an abomination. Howland would still get to participate in his revenge, but he'd have Ned's ability and booming voice.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 21, 2016 13:51:30 GMT
Is this foreshadowing of something in the future, or had it already happened in the past? 100% on board with the KotLT being a product of skinchanging. I figured it was Bran the Timelord warging Howland, since Howland prayed to the trees and Bran always wanted to be a Knight. I love the Ned idea. |
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