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Post by min on Jul 25, 2016 21:02:31 GMT
If it's true that the white walkers are First Men that were turned in order to help protect the Children and the rest of the First Men against the Andal invasion, then the Wall was also built as a defense. This would lend more credence to the theory that the story of the Night's King was a story about a coup where an Andalized-Stark overthrew a First-Men-Stark...perhaps even one of a son over-throwing a father like the son of Bael the Bard ends up doing. If we entertain that thought it could also explain the wildlings. The wildlings could be descendents of the followers of the over-thrown Stark that refused to kneel to the son. The Andal forces then wrested control of the Wall and came up with a vilified version of the account. Furthermore, if the son that overthrew the father was also a bastard named Jon Snow, that would explain why Ygritte told him that his was an "evil name". I like it a lot. Ygritte tells Jon that they all have some of Bael's blood including Jon. It follows that the Wildlings have Stark blood and this comes out in population in the warging, skin changing gene. I don't suppose the Wildlings are literate as a whole; but just because the Night King's name was stricken from the records; doesn't mean that the wildlings don't have their own lore and oral histories. Old Nan is mighty suspect. Jon Snow's evil name is a great catch!
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 25, 2016 21:03:23 GMT
I'm not buying the theory that Dawn is the same sword as Ice. I think there were always two swords. One milky white that reflects the light, and the other dark and fiery that consumes the light. I could be persuaded to read the theory if it were anybody else other than Voice. You may need to argue the finer points to me for me to take a look at it. That isn't coming from Voice. I haven't read anything written by him on that subject. We're not in disagreement. I think Jon will end up with two swords: the fiery sword and the icy sword. Oathkeeper(fire magic) and the Dawn Sword (ice magic.) The reverse story was the Night's King/LC was taken down, because he was sacrificing to the Others, so it seems he too was an ally to the people north of the Wall. That sounds like a Ramsey Snow sort of thing to do and yes I see him as the embodiment of the Night King. Yes Jon is protecting the Wildlings after the history that says the King in the North and the King of Winterfell joined forces to depose the Night's King. Not sure where we disagree. I need to go over again what you've written. I've been snitching peeks while working and haven't given this enough attention to give it justice. Will return with more later.
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Post by min on Jul 25, 2016 21:11:21 GMT
Jon is the Lord Commander, Ramsay is the legitimized Lord of Winterfell, and Roose is the Night's King...I think...maybe Rooses ice eyes are a fient and Jon will turn like he did on the show. Mance is our King Beyond the Wall. We may have four people this time instead of three, and I'm wondering if Bran has been meddling and the Nights King redux is the reason for the meddling? Ah, I see. Roose Bolton; with his eyes like chips of dirty ice. Roose pretty much suspects that Ramsey will kill him so I kind of peg Ramsey as going to the Wall and occupying the Night Fort since he's threatened to come to Jon. Jon Snow might be in an ice cell out of the picture; when Ramsey arrives. If that's the way it goes down. Jon isn't LC anymore. That's likely to be taken up by someone sympathetic to Ramsey.
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Post by min on Jul 25, 2016 21:12:45 GMT
That isn't coming from Voice. I haven't read anything written by him on that subject. We're not in disagreement. I think Jon will end up with two swords: the fiery sword and the icy sword. Oathkeeper(fire magic) and the Dawn Sword (ice magic.) That sounds like a Ramsey Snow sort of thing to do and yes I see him as the embodiment of the Night King. Yes Jon is protecting the Wildlings after the history that says the King in the North and the King of Winterfell joined forces to depose the Night's King. Not sure where we disagree. I need to go over again what you've written. I've been snitching peeks while working and haven't given this enough attention to give it justice. Will return with more later. LOL! I have to find some quotes by Jojen I think for the Horn of Joramun thread. I come across these things; fail to write them down the page number and then I have to hunt for them again.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 25, 2016 21:42:30 GMT
If it's true that the white walkers are First Men that were turned in order to help protect the Children and the rest of the First Men against the Andal invasion, then the Wall was also built as a defense. This would lend more credence to the theory that the story of the Night's King was a story about a coup where an Andalized-Stark overthrew a First-Men-Stark...perhaps even one of a son over-throwing a father like the son of Bael the Bard ends up doing. If we entertain that thought it could also explain the wildlings. The wildlings could be descendents of the followers of the over-thrown Stark that refused to kneel to the son. The Andal forces then wrested control of the Wall and came up with a vilified version of the account. Furthermore, if the son that overthrew the father was also a bastard named Jon Snow, that would explain why Ygritte told him that his was an "evil name". I like it a lot. Ygritte tells Jon that they all have some of Bael's blood including Jon. It follows that the Wildlings have Stark blood and this comes out in population in the warging, skin changing gene. I don't suppose the Wildlings are literate as a whole; but just because the Night King's name was stricken from the records; doesn't mean that the wildlings don't have their own lore and oral histories. Old Nan is mighty suspect. Jon Snow's evil name is a great catch! I think it's the bastard last name Snow that makes it evil since it was the legitimized Lord that killed the LC father.
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 0:06:06 GMT
I'm not buying the theory that Dawn is the same sword as Ice. I think there were always two swords. One milky white that reflects the light, and the other dark and fiery that consumes the light. This could play out another way. Long Claw could end up as the firey sword since R'hllor keeps showing Jon Snow to Melisandre in the flames, as R'hllor's instrument. When Jon fought Othor and burned his hand, in a sense he might have been marked as the Firey Hand of R'hllor. The Fiery Hand, known also as The Lord of Light's sacred soldiers and defenders of the temple, is a group of Warriors that protect the Red temple of R'hllor in the free city of Volantis. The Fiery Hand are all Slaves of R'hllor and wear ornate armor over orange robes. They wield spears whose points are shaped as writhing flames.
Their number is one thousand; never more, never less. There is a saying: "a new flame is kindled for every flame that gutters out". - Westeros Wiki Since Dany has a vision of a white lion taller than a man walking through tall grass; this could be Brienne with Oathkeeper. Who may end up Lord Commander of Dany's Queensguard. And wouldn't that be ironic; she would be keeping Ned's oath to protect the children with his own sword.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 26, 2016 0:07:48 GMT
If it's true that the white walkers are First Men that were turned in order to help protect the Children and the rest of the First Men against the Andal invasion, then the Wall was also built as a defense. This would lend more credence to the theory that the story of the Night's King was a story about a coup where an Andalized-Stark overthrew a First-Men-Stark...perhaps even one of a son over-throwing a father like the son of Bael the Bard ends up doing. If we entertain that thought it could also explain the wildlings. The wildlings could be descendents of the followers of the over-thrown Stark that refused to kneel to the son. The Andal forces then wrested control of the Wall and came up with a vilified version of the account. Furthermore, if the son that overthrew the father was also a bastard named Jon Snow, that would explain why Ygritte told him that his was an "evil name". I like it a lot. Ygritte tells Jon that they all have some of Bael's blood including Jon. It follows that the Wildlings have Stark blood and this comes out in population in the warging, skin changing gene. I don't suppose the Wildlings are literate as a whole; but just because the Night King's name was stricken from the records; doesn't mean that the wildlings don't have their own lore and oral histories. Old Nan is mighty suspect. Jon Snow's evil name is a great catch! If the Nights King was the bastard's father it doesn't necessarily mean the Nights King was also a Stark. The bastard of Winterfell was fathered by Bael the Bard. The bastard inherited Winterfell from his mother since there was no male heir. The Starks therefore are descendants of this legitimized bastard. The Stark children still have the bastard's mother's genes, but Jon is supposed to have "more of the North" in him than his half siblings therefore his father is a wildling.
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 0:17:48 GMT
I like it a lot. Ygritte tells Jon that they all have some of Bael's blood including Jon. It follows that the Wildlings have Stark blood and this comes out in population in the warging, skin changing gene. I don't suppose the Wildlings are literate as a whole; but just because the Night King's name was stricken from the records; doesn't mean that the wildlings don't have their own lore and oral histories. Old Nan is mighty suspect. Jon Snow's evil name is a great catch! If the Nights King was the bastard's father it doesn't necessarily mean the Nights King was also a Stark. The bastard of Winterfell was fathered by Bael the Bard. The bastard inherited Winterfell from his mother since there was no male heir. The Starks therefore are descendants of this legitimized bastard. The Stark children still have the bastard's mother's genes, but Jon is supposed to have "more of the North" in him than his half siblings therefore his father is a wildling. I don't think it necessarily follows that Jon's father is a wildling because they are more of the north. The Starks are of the north for generations beyond counting. Bael the Bard story may say something about the bastard Snow who was his son in the old tales, not necessarily the current Jon Snow . I think Ygritte's point was that the Starks and Wildings share blood ties, have mixed their bloodlines for generations. Jon thinks he's different from the wildlings. Ygritte says not so and uses the Bael the Bard story to make the point that they are not so different. They are people after all. That's the lesson that Jon learns. If there is a Bael the Bard story in the works; It's Petyr Baelish stealing Sansa and killing her father.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 26, 2016 0:20:30 GMT
I'm not buying the theory that Dawn is the same sword as Ice. I think there were always two swords. One milky white that reflects the light, and the other dark and fiery that consumes the light. This could play out another way. Long Claw could end up as the firey sword since R'hllor keeps showing Jon Snow in flames when she asks him to show her his instrument. When he fought Othor and burnt his hand in a sense he might have been marked as the Firey Hand of R'hllor. Since Dany has a vision of a white lion taller than a man walking through tall grass; this could be Brienne with Oathkeeper. Who may end up Lord Commander of Dany's Queensguard. And wouldn't that be ironic; she would be keeping Ned's oath to protect the children with his own sword. There is something more about Jeor Mormont and Longclaw that is yet to be revealed. At least I hope he was more than just a plot device to make way for Jon. Symbolically Jeor the LC is Jon the bastard's father figure, and Jon could be a possible legitimized Lord of Winterfell. This doubling over of roles makes me think this is deliberate meddling. Dany's memories of Ser Darry sound like Jeor Mormont also as well as the house with the red door having great carved wooden beams. I'm kind of leaning towards this being a false memory, but it also seems like her flight to Essos could match or fit in with Jorah Mormont's selling of slaves and running off with his wife Lynesse. I like your explanation for the white lion!
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 0:22:44 GMT
This could play out another way. Long Claw could end up as the firey sword since R'hllor keeps showing Jon Snow in flames when she asks him to show her his instrument. When he fought Othor and burnt his hand in a sense he might have been marked as the Firey Hand of R'hllor. Since Dany has a vision of a white lion taller than a man walking through tall grass; this could be Brienne with Oathkeeper. Who may end up Lord Commander of Dany's Queensguard. And wouldn't that be ironic; she would be keeping Ned's oath to protect the children with his own sword. There is something more about Jeor Mormont and Longclaw that is yet to be revealed. At least I hope he was more than just a plot device to make way for Jon. Symbolically Jeor the LC is Jon the bastard's father figure, and Jon could be a possible legitimized Lord of Winterfell. This doubling over of roles makes me think this is deliberate meddling. Dany's memories of Ser Darry sound like Jeor Mormont also as well as the house with the red door having great carved wooden beams. I'm kind of leaning towards this being a false memory, but it also seems like her flight to Essos could match or fit in with Jorah Mormont's selling of slaves and running off with his wife Lynesse. I like your explanation for the white lion! That is a puzzle. Why did Joer go the Night's Watch in the first place? What dishonor is he paying for to go into self imposed exile?
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 26, 2016 0:25:40 GMT
If the Nights King was the bastard's father it doesn't necessarily mean the Nights King was also a Stark. The bastard of Winterfell was fathered by Bael the Bard. The bastard inherited Winterfell from his mother since there was no male heir. The Starks therefore are descendants of this legitimized bastard. The Stark children still have the bastard's mother's genes, but Jon is supposed to have "more of the North" in him than his half siblings therefore his father is a wildling. I don't think it necessarily follows that Jon's father is a wildling because they are more of the north. The Starks are of the north for generations beyond counting. Bael the Bard story may something about the bastard Snow who was his son in the old tales, not necessarily the current Jon Snow . I think Ygritte's point was that the Starks and Wildings share blood ties, have mixed their bloodlines for generations. Jon thinks he's different from the wildlings. Ygritte says not so and uses the Bael the Bard story to make the point that they are not so different. They are people after all. That's the lesson that Jon learns. If there is a Bael the Bard story in the works; It's Petyr Baelish stealing Sansa and killing her father. That does sound like a logical explanation but it came up because he's the bastard of Winterfell. Ygritte was surprised Jon's mother hadn't told him the tale since it's about another bastard of Winterfell. The relationship to wildlings was a secondary point.
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 0:28:22 GMT
I don't think it necessarily follows that Jon's father is a wildling because they are more of the north. The Starks are of the north for generations beyond counting. Bael the Bard story may something about the bastard Snow who was his son in the old tales, not necessarily the current Jon Snow . I think Ygritte's point was that the Starks and Wildings share blood ties, have mixed their bloodlines for generations. Jon thinks he's different from the wildlings. Ygritte says not so and uses the Bael the Bard story to make the point that they are not so different. They are people after all. That's the lesson that Jon learns. If there is a Bael the Bard story in the works; It's Petyr Baelish stealing Sansa and killing her father. That does sound like a logical explanation but it came up because he's the bastard of Winterfell. Ygritte was surprised Jon's mother hadn't told him the tale since it's about another bastard of Winterfell. The relationship to wildlings was a secondary point. I didn't see any of those posts. I mostly just go to look at your posts and poke around. I think you could argue that Ramsey usurped him as the bastard of Winterfell. That's what Ramsey does.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 26, 2016 0:35:15 GMT
Petyr has Bael in Baelish, but he doesn't sing or play the harp, but he did take the Lord of Winterfell 's daughter and she went willingly. But imo if you add all the other tales together it makes a compelling argument that Jon!s father is a descendant of the Nights King. It'd be easier if I wasn't on my phone right now. If I was on my desktop I could more easily gather the evidence in one place.
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Post by min on Jul 26, 2016 0:40:24 GMT
Petyr has Bael in Baelish, but he doesn't sing or play the harp, but he did take the Lord of Winterfell 's daughter and she went willingly. But imo if you add all the other tales together it makes a compelling argument that Jon!s father is a descendant of the Nights King. It'd be easier if I wasn't on my phone right now. If I was on my desktop I could more easily gather the evidence in one place. Baelish does make up a lot of stuff and he tells a lot of stories. He's Bael-ish. LOL. Anyway, I am going to take a break and lie down for a bit.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 26, 2016 0:57:53 GMT
Petyr has Bael in Baelish, but he doesn't sing or play the harp, but he did take the Lord of Winterfell 's daughter and she went willingly. But imo if you add all the other tales together it makes a compelling argument that Jon!s father is a descendant of the Nights King. It'd be easier if I wasn't on my phone right now. If I was on my desktop I could more easily gather the evidence in one place. Baelish does make up a lot of stuff and he tells a lot of stories stories. He's Bael-ish. LOL. Anyway, I am going to take a break and lie down for a bit. Take care! I could use some rest too.
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