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Post by snowfyre on Aug 18, 2016 21:18:00 GMT
Small theory: Drogo, Rheagal, and Viserion, are Rhaego's bloodriders.
Small evidence.
Dany's child is prophesied to be "the khal of khals," the Stallion who Mounts the World. And in AGOT chapter 23, we are told...
...and...
Now - pushing a bit further... we already know that the words "prince" and "dragon" get confused, in certain Common Tongue translations (from whatever language we imagine that PtwP prophecy to have come from). The word khal may also find itself thrown into this mix of semi-synonymous terms and concepts. It almost certain is the equivalent of "king" in some contexts. And in Vaes Dothrak, Dany translates the word khalakka for us as "prince." And after peering into her prophetic smoke, the eldest crone declares quite clearly that "The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world." So right there, we have a "prince" who shall be a "stallion."
Anyway. Then you have to get back around from "stallion" to "dragon" ... but again, that's not too terribly hard. Just seems like all these things are pretty clearly connected. And eventually you get to "khal of khals" being "prince of dragons," or "dragon of dragons," or whatever permutation you like. Where, if Rhaego's bloodriders are dragons - and if "dragons" are "kings" - then everything sounds kind of cool.
And it all more or less supports my theory that the PtwP prophecy originates in Dothraki or some related tongue.
Actually... the other small(ish) theory I have in mind somewhere is that Dothraki and the Old Tongue of the First Men are related, along with the tongue of Asshai. And possible the Lhazareen - who are basically descended from Dothraki settlers. So it all ties together somewhere.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 18, 2016 21:48:34 GMT
Drogo, Rheagal, and Viserion, are Rhaego's bloodriders. This is glorious, great connection there. Does this mean you think Rhaego lives?
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Post by snowfyre on Aug 18, 2016 22:00:07 GMT
Does this mean you think Rhaego lives? "They shared a single life." Therefore... Rhaego lives! (Somewhere, I know I floated this theory once before. Was it as far back as Sable Hall? I only remembered doing that, after posting it here...)
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Post by snowfyre on Aug 18, 2016 22:24:41 GMT
She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her... as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. This line also contextualizes Dany's title quite nicely: "Mother of Dragons." She is the mother of her dragons' other brother.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 18, 2016 23:17:38 GMT
"They shared a single life." Therefore... Rhaego lives! (methinks I sense a new thread is in order)
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 19, 2016 13:27:28 GMT
Where, if Rhaego's bloodriders are dragons - and if "dragons" are "kings" - then everything sounds kind of cool. To throw the technicality question into the mix, what is the negative effect, if any, of Rhaego's dragon bloodriders (bloodflyers?) being still alive instead of being sacrificed with their khal? Does the fact that they came alive in the fire indeed mean that Rhaego is alive? If Rhaego is dead, could he be considered "slain in battle" which requires his bloodriders to live to avenge him? If not, what is this loophole in the prophecy that Dany has unwittingly discovered? Are PtwP/STMtW rights transferable under the right circumstances? Actually... the other small(ish) theory I have in mind somewhere is that Dothraki and the Old Tongue of the First Men are related, along with the tongue of Asshai. Interesting...and very plausible. I was thinking Old Ghiscari, due to the guttural sounds and the similarity of certain customs between the north and the slaver cities - natural cultural migration or forced exile by proto-Valyrians or whatever? But, this also makes perfect sense given what we know about diffusion of language in real world.
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Post by snowfyre on Aug 19, 2016 13:53:00 GMT
(New thread for continuing the conversation...) what is the negative effect, if any, of Rhaego's dragon bloodriders (bloodflyers?) being still alive instead of being sacrificed with their khal? Does the fact that they came alive in the fire indeed mean that Rhaego is alive? If Rhaego is dead, could he be considered "slain in battle" which requires his bloodriders to live to avenge him? If not, what is this loophole in the prophecy that Dany has unwittingly discovered? Are PtwP/STMtW rights transferable under the right circumstances? Yes... good questions. In what sense does Rhaego "live," anyway? Well, I'm guessing Weasel Pie might go with the idea that Dany's baby is actually, physically, still among the living. As in, Mirri Maz Duur lied about the "creature" drawn forth from Dany's womb already being dead - and somebody made off with the baby. I, on the other hand, would go with a more figurative reading. I'd say that "Rhaego lives" in his bloodriders (Dany's dragons), in the sense that Dany's child and the three hatchlings all "shared a single life." But as you point out... that raises further questions. Wasn't Rhaego dead, before the three dragons hatched? And if so, how can it be said that they shared a life? Worth pondering, I say! Interesting...and very plausible. I was thinking Old Ghiscari, due to the guttural sounds and the similarity of certain customs between the north and the slaver cities - natural cultural migration or forced exile by proto-Valyrians or whatever? But, this also makes perfect sense given what we know about diffusion of language in real world. Hm. The Ghiscari. I've wondered about Old Ghiscari, as well. The word "gutteral" is used both with reference to Ghiscari and to Dothraki. One of the main reasons I'm trying to connect these languages and cultures, is that I'd like to make better sense of how to connect their prophecies. And there is mention of Ghiscari prophecy, in a couple of significant places. One comes from the Green Grace, who urges Dany to marry a local, so that in her child "the prophecies will be fulfilled, and your enemies will melt away like summer snows." (There's also something about having a dragon for a mother and a harpy for a father in there.) And of course, the other person to connect Old Ghis to prophecy is Archmaester Marwyn the Mage - who tells us that Gorghan of Old Ghis analogized prophecy to a treacherous woman.
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Post by snowfyre on Aug 19, 2016 14:04:50 GMT
But, this also makes perfect sense given what we know about diffusion of language in real world. And this. Definitely agree with this. Actually... it's possible we've got two different topics here, and they might eventually fit better into separate threads. (Though obviously, I consider them connected.) But there are reasons to think that languages and cultures in Planetos may relate in ways similar to what is seen in the real world. Among others, we have: - Luwin's maesterly account of the history of Westeros, in which the First Men sound like Dothraki khalasars, riding across an ancient land bridge with their horses.
- Evidence that shadowbinding and bloodmagic have an ancient history in Westeros. (See Bran's last weir vision, and the shadow-proofed walls of ancient Storm's End)
- Odd "black basalt" architectural structures, scattered across Westeros... also (reportedly) to be found in Asshai.
- Apparently coinciding prophecies, ancient, and known in various forms to people in lands as far apart as Asshai, Vaes Dothrak, and the Citadel.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 19, 2016 14:08:32 GMT
Well, I'm guessing Weasel Pie might go with the idea that Dany's baby is actually, physically, still among the living. As in, Mirri Maz Duur lied about the "creature" drawn forth from Dany's womb already being dead - and somebody made off with the baby. Actually. I think he lives in another dimension/time. This is all crackpot stuff I haven't put together in one place. My thought is that HBO gave it away by showing Drogo and Rhaego north of the wall. Both Drogo and Rhaego were somehow swapped out of the present into another time. Which opens the door to Jon Snow being the Stallion Who Mounts the World (his parents are Dany and Drogo), and Dany is the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Crazy. Or... bear with me... what if baby swapping is more literal and magical, and Rhaego was "swapped" in the womb. We've got plenty of stories about monstrous dragon babies, and they sound awfully similar to what Dany supposedly birthed. Keeping in mind "he had been dead for years" I'm not sure who he could have been swapped with, unless it was whatever baby becomes... Jon Snow. This could tie into the meaning of "child of three" somehow. It could also tie into the suspected blood ritual at the ToJ. Still working out ideas on this, but you get the gist of it. Rhaego is not alive as an infant, he's a grown man in the current story. He could also be Tyrion, for obvious reasons.
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Post by snowfyre on Aug 19, 2016 14:11:44 GMT
Actually. I think he lives in another dimension/time. This is all crackpot stuff I haven't put together in one place. Nice. You and I are definitely headed different directions with all this... but they both look fun.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 19, 2016 14:19:51 GMT
Sometimes different roads lead to the same castle
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Post by snowfyre on Aug 19, 2016 14:21:42 GMT
Lol!
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 19, 2016 15:06:54 GMT
ctually... it's possible we've got two different topics here, and they might eventually fit better into separate threads. (Though obviously, I consider them connected.) I agree, they're connected at a deep level...and if I'm reading you correctly, this theory and some of your earlier musings are collecting everything under the Asshai umbrella, yes? Something I can also get on board with. My understanding from TWOIAF (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Dothraki are actually the younger culture. Perhaps not by much, but still. *I* think that what we're seeing here with the Lhazareen, Old Ghis, Great Empire of the Dawn, etc is multiple cradles of civilization, just like we have in the real world with Mesopotamia, the Nile, Yellow River in China, etc, and more than likely the First Men, Dothraki, whoever either originated in these cradles or evolved right next to one another...exactly like in the real world. Mesopotamia was the Bronze culture; IMO there's a clear parallel in ASOIAF with the multiple factions of Sumer, later conquered by the Akkadians ( while still retaining their ancient language), a culture that eventually further split into Assyria and Babylonia. GEotD has much in common with ancient Egypt. On and on. The early Sumerians are also the ones that worshipped "the old gods beyond count", gods that tended toward elemental opposition" sun/moon, earth/sky, north/south, east/west. I lean toward the idea that our First Men were a faction of pre-Ghis Ghiscari (?) that were forced out/conquered, taking their gods and their language with them - they ditched the gods in favor of the Children but did they retain the language? Did the Children and the Giants learn the "old tongue" (different from the "true tongue") from the First Men? /digression Now, re: Asshai, the history is not known, only "a city stood there since the world began and will stand there until it ends." This may be good indication that Asshai is the OLDEST of the cradles of civilization. (Think about that prophet Gorghan: Gorghan = Gorgon** = head made of venomous serpents = Harpy = winged = dragon = Asshai. Very convoluted six degrees of Kevin Bacon there but I think you see where I'm going...all the things are rooted in Assahi.) If all of these prophecies originated here, it makes sense that multiple subsequent cultures would have their own version of the same thing. I hope that made sense. **ETA: Recall also that the Gorgon in mythos is actually three beings...sisters Stheno, Euryale,and Medusa. Three heads - two immortal, one not. Also, something cool from Wikipedia: "The large Gorgon eyes, as well as Athena's "flashing" eyes, are symbols termed "the divine eyes" by Gimbutas (who did not originate the perception). They may be represented by spirals, wheels, concentric circles, swastikas, firewheels, and other images. I'm not saying anything, I'm just sayin'.
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Post by min on Aug 19, 2016 15:39:26 GMT
Keeping in mind "he had been dead for years" Could his soul have been swapped out to the past? That would make him the original stallion who mounts the earth; who has been dead for years. And Dany the original mother of dragons. I'm thinking of Tyrion's time loop at the Bridge of Dreams. Maybe Dany's dream of Rheago is a vision of the past. That might fit with the answer MMD gives Dany about seeing Khal Drogo or her baby? I'm not sure Dany meant Khal Drogo when she asked the question. We already have the first line of MMD's riddle about the sun travelling backwards an apparently a time portal. Was Dany's soul sent forward in time from the past? ETA: And indeed Tyrion's birth, a monster with a tail. Could Rhaego have been reborn as Tyrion? Cersei describes the red comet as a scratch across the face of the moon. Tyrion's face has been scratched. Monstrous. Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years - MMD When she becomes pregnant again; then Tyrion will arrive on the scene?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 19, 2016 15:54:25 GMT
Could his soul have been swapped out to the past? That would make him the original stallion who mounts the earth; who has been dead for years. And Dany the original mother of dragons. I'm thinking of Tyrion's time loop at the Bridge of Dreams. Maybe Dany's dream of Rheago is a vision of the past. If Dany is the "daughter of death" who becomes the sacrificial "bride of fire" so she can transform into "mother of dragons", and Rhaego is her son, this could be true. If all of these individual prophecies harken back to a single point of origin somewhere in these early cradles of civilization, the Rhaego that Dany sees in the vision - "a tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him" - is one of the original conqueror lords..the FIRST Stallion That Mounts the World - of comingled bloodline between horse and dragon. If THAT Rhaego died in battle, then he has indeed been dead for years...and his bloodriders - once living in present time - would be fulfilling their duty to avenge him. Maybe?
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