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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 14, 2016 19:00:24 GMT
"There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, " and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this." (5.03, JON) I can't believe I forgot about THIS part of that quote, too. I bet there's a fairly small pool of people that Aemon considers "better men".
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Post by min on Sept 14, 2016 19:04:18 GMT
"There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, " and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this." (5.03, JON) I can't believe I forgot about THIS part of that quote, too. I bet there's a fairly small pool of people that Aemon considers "better men". I cringe at the thought of what this could mean.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 14, 2016 19:13:14 GMT
Summerhall is high on my speculation list, natch. Makes me wonder though if Rhaegar might be included this too - once he 'became persuaded' that Aegon was the PtwP, did he start planning something of which Aemon would not approve?
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 14, 2016 19:31:08 GMT
Those appear to be words recited from verse - likely lines from a prophecy. And if looking back to Dany's chapters in AGOT, we can identify a moment in her story that corresponds very closely to it. Immediately after Drogo's khalasar comes upon the Lhazareen town, and defeats a smaller khalasar: Or the lines of a charm. Seems like he could be repeating them as kind of chant, or prayer even. Not necessarily from a prophecy. The idea of using king's blood comes from Melisandre in the first place. Just seems strange that on Dragonstone, where she is less powerful than at the Wall, she could use a bastard child of a king, but at the Wall she (or whomever came up to with the idea) would need to use two kings in a row in order to achieve the same prophesied results. Love the parallel with Drogo killing both khals, father and son in a row. Nice. It also parallels what happens in the MMD/tent ritual. Drogo is, I believe, already dead. Whatever is animating him is not his soul, he's been inhabited by whatever MMD conjured up. Rhaego, though yet unborn is the khal of Drogo's khalessar. And he too dies before he was born, but possibly after Drogo's death because Dany feels him trying kicking his way out before she enters the tent. So again father, then son; both died khals/kings.
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Post by snowfyre on Sept 14, 2016 19:53:04 GMT
The idea of using king's blood comes from Melisandre in the first place. Might be interesting to trace that. Though even if Mel is the first to use the phrase in these books - the concept wouldn't be a "Mel original." Aemon's confirmation to Jon that "there is power in king's blood" is enough to tell us that.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 14, 2016 19:57:33 GMT
Might be interesting to trace that. Though even if Mel is the first to use the phrase in these books - the concept wouldn't be a "Mel original." Aemon's confirmation to Jon that "there is power in king's blood" is enough to tell us that. Quite true. Aemon seems to know a lot more than he lets on. I don't have a good way of tracing the origin of the idea, though. So if you find it, and it turns out I'm wrong, that'd be fine by me.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Sept 14, 2016 20:13:10 GMT
Glad you brought the father-and-son-as-kings to the table. My post was lost in the shuffle last night with some bits of that and this. Anyhoo
I am skeptical that king's blood holds more power unless the blood is already 'special.' (Example: Bran's blood that makes him a greenseer) The political office a man holds does not enhance the blood. Robert's nor Stannis' blood became any more magical when they declared themselves kings.
So, I'd say kings blood could be a prophecy or incantation that, over time, has been taken out of context by multiple people which has been passed around through many cultures.
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Post by snowfyre on Sept 14, 2016 21:25:57 GMT
I believe the first mention of "kingsblood," on-page, comes in Dany's very first POV chapter, as she recalls what she's learned from Viserys regarding what it means to be Targaryen:
Which is somewhat interesting...
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Post by Maester Flagons on Sept 14, 2016 23:51:44 GMT
Kingsblood in that context, yes. At the same time, Viserys is either full of it or misinformed because the Targs had been deluding their blood for generations. Could Viserys be an idiot savant? Melisandre, in her desire to kill a 'king's' son (Unless Mance really does have Targ blood in his veins) or a king's bastard son, has missed the boat, imo. To take hold of any ol soul and burn them will not bring about some great saviour of the world. Most likely their is some truth or prophetic conclusion to a boy or girl with the right blood to make a sacrifice worth while. But it should be an actual sacrifice, as in Dany's case of infanticide. A pinch of salt and a dash of smoke thrown in at some point along the way, and it makes a potent recipe. Would it lead to a saviour or some other monstrosity is the question I would be asking.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 14, 2016 23:56:00 GMT
The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; The bolded is interesting too, being as the line hadn't been "pure" since Daeron II married Mariah Martell - and it was interrupted two more times in succession by a Dayne and a Blackwood before returning to now-diluted purity of incest of Jaehaerys/Shaera & Aerys Rhaella. ETA: by Maester Flagons ETA again: Perhaps the diluted bloodline plus failure to sacrifice the right child is the reason there have been no dragons until now? Actually, that makes me think...Martell, Dayne, Blackwood. Three lines that broke the wheel, so to speak. Is it possible to "undo" those interloper bloodlines and return to purity? /spitballing
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Post by min on Sept 15, 2016 0:42:44 GMT
The Foresaken chapter is pretty gruesome. Euron is collecting 'holy men'and wizards to use for sacrifice including his own brother. And he is also sacrificing his salt wife and their unborn child. This brings back the formula for MMD's ritual; with herself as the godswife sacrificed along with Dany's unborn child which seems to be more potent than an infant. Euron traces his ancestry back to the Grey King. Although it seems he is using water rather than fire.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 15, 2016 16:05:20 GMT
I am skeptical that king's blood holds more power unless the blood is already 'special.' (Example: Bran's blood that makes him a greenseer) The political office a man holds does not enhance the blood. Robert's nor Stannis' blood became any more magical when they declared themselves kings. So, I'd say kings blood could be a prophecy or incantation that, over time, has been taken out of context by multiple people which has been passed around through many cultures. I agree with you on this. The magic held within the blood is the important thing. Starks have the warg/skinchanger/greenseer magic running in their veins, as would the Blackwoods. The Targs, out of all the Valyrian families, were the only ones not to use whips and spells to bind their dragons to them, suggesting there is a kind of magic about them as well. That said, I think the idea behind a king is also important. If you look at it in terms of who could have the power to win a political office, such as the Kings Beyond the Wall which are few and far between, then the very belief of the king's people, coupled with whatever personal power he used to win his crown, would also have a sympathetic kind of power any John Doe would not have. I don't think it would have the kind of power that a truly magical bloodline has, but there maybe more power in it than some random bloke without magical blood that never achieved a thing. Sympathetic magic, rather than true spell casting, is what I'm thinking.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 15, 2016 16:17:03 GMT
along with Dany's unborn child which seems to be more potent than an infant Completely with you on this one. Rhaego's death helped wake the dragons. Rhaegar was born as Summerhall was burning, meaning he was still "unborn" at the beginning of...whatever Summerhall was. Jon would have been unborn during the Rebellion, as would possibly Ashara's child. I think it's safe to say something strange is afoot at the Circle K, and it involves blood sacrifice of children.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 15, 2016 16:21:45 GMT
The Foresaken chapter is pretty gruesome. Euron is collecting 'holy men'and wizards to use for sacrifice including his own brother. And he is also sacrificing his salt wife and their unborn child. This brings back the formula for MMD's ritual; with herself as the godswife sacrificed along with Dany's unborn child which seems to be more potent than an infant. Euron traces his ancestry back to the Grey King. Although it seems he is using water rather than fire. I think in Euron's case, he's closer to the mark than Melisandre is in terms of using sacrifices of the right sort. If we look at as what's in the king's blood or magical blood, that makes it so special then Euron's use of wizards and holy men is a better bet. A wizard or truly religious person like Mel, or MMD who can cast spells and harness magic (even if they themselves are don't have magical/special blood) would be important. I don't think Euron's working off a prophecy, but who knows what he's learned along the way. If say he's figured out that by using certain magical people, he can create more power for himself, then we should be looking at what role MMD really played in the creation of Dany's dragons. Maybe it's more than 2 kings, the father then the son, plus Dany's self-sacrifice. MMD, as a magical person -- as opposed to with magical blood -- is what's needed in the sacrifice. Of course this would mean none of Mel's sacrifices will work until she too jumps in the pyre. I rather like that thought
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 15, 2016 16:30:03 GMT
Completely with you on this one. Rhaego's death helped wake the dragons. Rhaegar was born as Summerhall was burning, meaning he was still "unborn" at the beginning of...whatever Summerhall was. Jon would have been unborn during the Rebellion, as would possibly Ashara's child. Yes, there is definitely a pattern emerging. Dany was brought into that tent while Rhaego was still alive and kicking her. And Rhaegar was present during the happenings at Summerhall. The question I have is was there a magic user present at Summerhall? Was the wood's witch, who at stretch can be considered a magic practitioner with her prophetic visions, there? If she was and as we suspect did not die, but went on to be the GoHH, then maybe that right there is why they failed to raise dragons. Gah, or maybe two magic rituals are needed. The spell first, then the sacrifice. I need more coffee.
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