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Post by min on Sept 9, 2016 13:10:07 GMT
The salt and smoke equation for Azor Ahai is an interesting question. How many places can we locate as salt and smoke? It occurs to me that we could also be talking about sulfur as a salt. So any region with a sulfurous, rotten egg stink? Something to do with volcanic activity or hot springs? Does "born of" mean literally born in such a place or re-born in such a place. 1) the Salt Pans and the beehives on the Quiet Isle - Brienne 'confesses' to Elder Brother after his convo about broken men. She effectively cleanses her soul. This is a place where past lives come to die (Sandor Clegane) and are reborn as someone else. Has Brienne been reborn? 2) the Smoking Sea - a ring of active volcanos surrounding an inner sea of saltwater - Tyrion already refers to himself as a revenant; a walking corpse, has he been reborn in the eye of the storm? 3) Dragonstone - is this really a place of smoke and salt? I imagine that Melisandre thinks so. A place littered with obsidian and a salt sea. It's questionable whether Dany was born here or in the South of Dorne. This deconstruction is interesting. 4) salty tear and smoking blood - Bran tastes a salty tear when he passes through the Black Gate and Jon's blood 'smokes' when he is stabbed - can 'smoke' be a mist, a fog, a haze? Blood and tears, or bloody tears; like the eyes of wierwoods Is the 'forging' of lightbringer akin to the forging of a soul?
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 9, 2016 15:08:34 GMT
I think the Battle of Blackwater Bay could fit both for Tyrion and Davos as a rebirth in Salt and Smoke. Especially considering that they literally lit the salt water bay on fire with wildfire. Tyrion has this bizarro dream as he recuperates, and Davos has a conversation with a disembodied voice as he is stranded out on his rock.
In fact if you think of tempering a sword, you put a sword into water to cool it off. Davos is literally plunged into the Bay and brought back out. Later he is standing over Stannis' map of Westeros, and his shadow falls over it like a sword.
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Post by jnr on Sept 9, 2016 15:32:22 GMT
The salt and smoke equation for Azor Ahai is an interesting question. Just a thought... the only person who ties salt and smoke to Azor Ahai reborn is Melisandre. All other references tie it to tPtwP. The only person who overtly equates AAR and tPtwP is... also Melisandre.
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Post by min on Sept 9, 2016 15:33:59 GMT
I think the Battle of Blackwater Bay could fit both for Tyrion and Davos as a rebirth in Salt and Smoke. Especially considering that they literally lit the salt water bay on fire with wildfire. Tyrion has this bizarro dream as he recuperates, and Davos has a conversation with a disembodied voice as he is stranded out on his rock. In fact if you think of tempering a sword, you put a sword into water to cool it off. Davos is literally plunged into the Bay and brought back out. Later he is standing over Stannis' map of Westeros, and his shadow falls over it like a sword. Interesting! I forgot about Davos. And Tyrion also drowns and is revived on the Sorrows. Sam also falls into the canal at Braavos and thinks he has drowned. I wonder how many characters are actually being 'tempered' first, in water.
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Post by min on Sept 9, 2016 15:45:35 GMT
The salt and smoke equation for Azor Ahai is an interesting question. Just a thought... the only person who ties salt and smoke to Azor Ahai reborn is Melisandre. All other references tie it to tPtwP. The only person who overtly equates AAR and tPtwP is... also Melisandre. Thank you jnr. I'm going to have to check her specific passages again.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 9, 2016 17:05:40 GMT
Just a thought... the only person who ties salt and smoke to Azor Ahai reborn is Melisandre. All other references tie it to tPtwP. The only person who overtly equates AAR and tPtwP is... also Melisandre. Not quite. Aemon also believes the PtwP will be born of salt and smoke. Aemon is also the one to tie both prophesies together. So while Melisandre links the PtwP with Azor Ahai, Aemon does not contradict her, nor probe the matter the way he does with Lightbringer. It seems clear that Aemon doubts Stannis is TPtwP, but he doesn't doubt that both prophesies are one. I've often wondered what Azor Ahai means in whatever language it is Melsandre's using. ETA The red comet is also present in both prophesies. So we have both the salt and smoke, and the red comet in both prophesies. Seems unlikely that both of these are two different prophesies about the same person, rather it's one prophesy with one culture using the translated version, and the other using the original version.
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Post by jnr on Sept 9, 2016 20:28:18 GMT
Aemon also believes the PtwP will be born of salt and smoke. He doesn't tie AAR to salt and smoke, which is what I said. Aemon is also the one to tie both prophesies together. We read this very differently. You interpret his failing to contradict her to mean he agrees with her; I do not. Silence doesn't constitute assent. I think that he, a very wise man, saw no advantage in getting into an argument with a religious zealot. This is very similar to the way I deliberately do not engage directly with people like J. Stargaryen in the RLJ thread (which also does not constitute assent). He does doubt Lightbringer is legit, but as for AAR being the PtwP, or Stannis being either one, those are quite different logical matters. If you want to know what Aemon thinks about AAR, consider the book he asked Jon to read when he left Castle Black. Not a thing he brings up with Melisandre -- or Stannis -- either.
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Post by ac on Sept 9, 2016 20:32:45 GMT
Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet[\b] Ser Duncan
This interesting. At least to me this suggests that the text of the prophecy does not mention a comet but rather "a bleeding star". What else could a bleeding star symbolise?
P.s. on my phone again so couldn't quote properly
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Post by min on Sept 9, 2016 20:37:46 GMT
Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet[\b] Ser Duncan
This interesting. At least to me this suggests that the text of the prophecy does not mention a comet but rather "a bleeding star". What else could a bleeding star symbolise?
P.s. on my phone again so couldn't quote properly If Jon represents the morningstar and I think he does; then perhaps he's the bleeding star. Or maybe Arthur Dayne was the bleeding 'star of the morning'.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Sept 9, 2016 20:41:07 GMT
Does anyone have a quote with the born amidst salt and smoke part?When was the first time it surfaced?
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Post by min on Sept 9, 2016 20:49:34 GMT
Are we talking about the Faith Militant: the swords and the stars. Geez Louise - you have to be kidding me.... Sandor Clegane? LOL Reborn at the Saltpans among he smoking bee-hives. 1) When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt - according to Mel 2) There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 9, 2016 20:54:22 GMT
Does anyone have a quote with the born amidst salt and smoke part?When was the first time it surfaced? Not until ASOS surprisingly enough:
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Post by jnr on Sept 9, 2016 21:07:09 GMT
We read this very differently. You interpret his failing to contradict her to mean he agrees with her; I do not. Silence doesn't constitute assent. I think that he, a very wise man, saw no advantage in getting into an argument with a religious zealot. This is very similar to the way I deliberately do not engage directly with people like J. Stargaryen in the RLJ thread (which also does not constitute assent). About this: We know Aemon thought Stannis' Lightbringer was bullshit. Because as he says to Sam, there was no heat. And Lightbringer is absolutely positively supposed to emit heat. But notice Aemon didn't say this to Melisandre's face. He didn't say: I think he failed to do all this because Melisandre had just revealed herself as a zealot. And he just laughed at her inside and that was good enough. He certainly didn't mean to imply he agreed with her about Lightbringer, Stannis, etc., through his silence.
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Post by min on Sept 9, 2016 21:08:38 GMT
Checking all the various quotes from the Mel and Benerro - one thinks its Stannis, the other Dany who will bring a summer that never ends. Sounds like zealotry and adjusting the original prophecy from Asshai. When the red stars bleed is different from a bleeding star. There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him I don't see anything about salt and smoke. The PwiP and AA could still be two different prophecies. Drawing lightbringer a sword? from the fire or forge of salt and smoke?
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 9, 2016 21:27:54 GMT
I think it may be Aemon who is conflating the prophecies of various cultures. Both Melisandre and Aemon seem to believe that there is a coming major battle. Melisandre has Stannis pegged as her Azor Ahai. Before his death Aemon starts to vacillate towards Dany as TPTWP. Rhaegar believed that TPTWTP it was to be his son Aegon and perhaps that Aegon was going to be one of the heads of The Dragon. I think all three are a bit of a zealot.
I think all of these prophecies are being conflated. My personal opinion is that Azor Ahai is a prophecy from Asshai. The Prince that was Promised is a Rhoynish prophecy. And the Valyrians had some sort of belief of The Dragon and The Dragon has "three heads". Then we have the Westeros tale of a coming Long Night, and whatever the Song of Ice and Fire is (perhaps something to do with the Reeds' vow to the Starks). I think all sides are trying to reconcile all of these different beliefs into one "savior".
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