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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 13, 2016 20:06:24 GMT
I don't think the targ blood is necessary; just the Stark blood and possibly the Baratheon bloodline since Storm's End also has an association with the Cotf and the Durrandon's and further back to the Gardener's. The Gardener's claim to have founded most of the great houses IIC. The point being that these three represent ancient bloodlines going back to the dawn age are associated in some way with the CotF. Ah, but if you're right and he is Robert's then Jon does have Targaryen blood as well. Remember, Robert's grandmother is Rhaella. If Stannis and his brothers would've fit, then any child of theirs would also fit the PtwP. Looking at you Shireen!
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 13, 2016 20:08:23 GMT
That said... I am persistently bugged by the suspicion that these semi-separate prophecies contain many of the same elements. As if Martin wrote himself a little limerick, and then just riffed on it with different storylines. To illustrate, it strikes me as remarkable that in both Dany's (DtwP) story, and in Jon's (AAR) story - the arrival/transformation of the prophesied figure appears to require that somebody " kill the boy." Am I jumping to conclusions, there? Possibly. But Melisandre's interest in Edric Storm is notable and peculiar - and her determination to use the boy as blood sacrifice coincides with her pleas to Stannis that he let her " wake the stone dragon." Meanwhile... just before leaving Jon the Jade Compendium, and bookmarking the AA story, Maester Aemon gives his final advice to the young Lord Commander. He says: " Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born." And of course, in Dany's storyline, the final quickening of her dragon eggs happens immediately after the death of her newborn boy Rhaego. This is brilliant. I hadn't see that connection until I read this. There is a motif going on here, but I'm wondering if it is not all pointing to Jon's rebirth. Edric Storm gets away; Rhaego was never born, but his spirit may have gone into one or all of the dragons. Since these boys were never killed, they could not let the man be born. But Jon is killed. So his resurrection would be the fulfilment of the man being born to be someone referred to in the prophecies. However, if Jon is the PtwP or the DtwP, would that mean he has Targ blood in him? Or is the Targ blood not necessary? The only thing we have to go on is that a wood's witch told Aegon V that TPTWP would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. So based on her word, then I would assume that TPTWP would have some Targaryen blood.
One of my issues with Jon being TPTWP, is what does it mean to be the Prince? Is the word absolutely meaningless, or does one have to in some way or could in some way be considered a Prince?
Under the traditional R + L = J dogma, which is pretty much from the same camp that insists that Jon must be TPTWP, Jon would ironically have never been a Prince. If, as their argument goes, he is Rhaegar's son, by the time of his birth at toj, Aerys is dead, Rhaegar is dead, and Jon's half siblings are presumably dead. So in that case, Jon wouldn't be a Prince, he would have been born a king.
And anytime there is a subtle symbolism of Jon (or sometimes not so subtle symbolism) it's always been as a king not a prince. After all Mormont's raven continuously refers to Jon as King, and later as the Corn King.
This makes me dubious that Jon's role is going to be as the Prince that was Promised.
(even though ironically enough, if my crackpot theory about Jon being Howland's son, and Howland, being the son of Duncan the Small turns out to be correct, you could argue that Jon is a Prince, if you argue that Howland is the hidden king, being the first born of the first born of Aegon V.)
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 13, 2016 20:16:48 GMT
I don't think the targ blood is necessary; just the Stark blood and possibly the Baratheon bloodline since Storm's End also has an association with the Cotf and the Durrandon's and further back to the Gardener's. The Gardener's claim to have founded most of the great houses IIC. The point being that these three represent ancient bloodlines going back to the dawn age are associated in some way with the CotF. Ah, but if you're right and he is Robert's then Jon does have Targaryen blood as well. Remember, Robert's grandmother is Rhaella. If Stannis and his brothers would've fit, then any child of theirs would also fit the PtwP. Looking at you Shireen! Of course this would also put Gendry, Edric, and Mya into play as well.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 13, 2016 20:21:59 GMT
the arrival/transformation of the prophesied figure appears to require that somebody " kill the boy." Am I jumping to conclusions, there? Possibly. But Melisandre's interest in Edric Storm is notable and peculiar - and her determination to use the boy as blood sacrifice coincides with her pleas to Stannis that he let her " wake the stone dragon." Meanwhile... just before leaving Jon the Jade Compendium, and bookmarking the AA story, Maester Aemon gives his final advice to the young Lord Commander. He says: " Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born." And of course, in Dany's storyline, the final quickening of her dragon eggs happens immediately after the death of her newborn boy Rhaego. This reminds me of a thread I had planned to start and then forgot about....I'll post it here though, as it's relevant to the kill-the-boy idea. We've all known "those" posters from various online locales that tend to have the eyebrow-disappearing, "ummm, okay", WTF-inducing posts containing lots of totally insane ramblings and crackpot so crackpot you're almost convinced it was put forth as a joke, but it's totally not and this person really is that nuts. Time-travelling fetuses, whomping weirwoods, Karl Ned, whatever. We've all seen them. However...every so often, if/when you can bear to put on your high boots and wade through the lunacy, you realize that in some cases, when the stars have aligned just so, there's a chance that this nutcase actually got it right. I ran across one of these the other day, a contributor to a LmL thread that even LmL refused to argue with because it was so out there. BUT..read the below. " Blood magic + sacrificing one's child + sacrificing oneself = becoming the *blank*. A second life as the *blank*. Where *blank* is the animal/beast on hand. The child seems to merely be the catalyst, a bolster, its blood line important.
Euron understands. He knows he needs a heir worthy of him. That is he needs a dragon blooded child in order to sacrifice to achieve his goal of a second life inside a dragon, Drogon. He needs Dany to bear him a dragon blooded child, hence why he's all about marrying her. He seems to have worked out he needs to kill himself too, hence jumping off the tower in order to fly. And it is ofcourse all because he wants to fly, skinchange a dragon, a second life as the dragon. ... The man has a horn called dragon binder, it reads blood for fire, fire for blood. That Rhaego's life, Dany's blood, was the cost of Dany's dragons has been hammered home. Euron has a specific requirement, dragon blooded Dany to produce him a worthy heir. And he has a dream, flying. Dragon, dragon dragon dragon. ... The AA story is about Dany trying to become pregnant. Sacred fiery flames of the temple her womb, the tempering sex and pregnancy, the failure, shattering, miscarriages. She needs to become pregnant because she needs a dragon blood child to sacrifice (recurring theme, the power of her dragons come at the cost of children, Rhaego, Hazzea) to repeat the process and fix Drogon, to wake him from the stone, cure him of Euron. She repeatedly fails by way of miscarriages by Aurane Waters (water) and Tyrion (lion). Then she finds Jon and succeeds (I will never father a bastard, you know nothing Jon Snow. Dany could not remember the little girl's name and that was the saddest thing of all. I will never have a little girl of my own). Only Jon being Jon, won't let her sacrifice the baby to restore Drogon and save the realm, the price Dany paid before and will be willing to again. To Jon that would be going Targaryen, and Jon will reject that way to stay Stark, a choice of fathers. Ice vs Fire. Recurring theme, the safety of an innocent child trumps all, including the whole of the realm, Ned (the father he'll never forget), Stannis, Davos, their dead girl in the tower Shireen, Craster, baby swapping, Gilly's child called monster. What kind of monster would give a babe to the living flames? We are both monsters, Daario and I. " This poster is known for some rather, ah, creative theories, so there's a bunch of mumbo jumbo in there that can probably be excluded. I bolded the parts that stood out for me; all these thoughts tie back to "kill the boy". We see the Targaryen obsession with dragons in Aemon's own brother, who just so happened to die in the fires of Summerhall. Who lived? The baby, Rhaegar. But...there was no real dragon, only the dragon prince. Bring in the TOJ and the fishiness with it, the symmetry between TOJ details and MMD's tent ritual. We have no real conclusions from that other than possibly a baby emerged from there in some fashion. Again though...a living child - and no dragon. DANY'S ritual, however...baby Rhaego dies - and voila, dragons. IMO, "kill the boy" is a requirement. In that regard, I wonder if we should revisit the Nissa Nissa/Azor Ahai story and look at it in terms of child sacrifice. The time frame in the legend equals 180 days, roughly 6 & change lunar months or the duration of a 'visible' pregnancy, and NN's part in it does reflect some strong birth symbolism. Sacrificing her child to make the magic happen would certainly bring about a "cry of anguish and ecstasy."
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Post by min on Sept 13, 2016 20:34:00 GMT
Ah, but if you're right and he is Robert's then Jon does have Targaryen blood as well. Remember, Robert's grandmother is Rhaella. If Stannis and his brothers would've fit, then any child of theirs would also fit the PtwP. Looking at you Shireen! Yes I remember; but I'm just not sure if that is necessary to the role he will play on the ice side or not. Unless being R'hllor's chosen one makes a difference. We have Bran on the ice side and Dany on the fire side; Is Jon both fire and ice?
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Post by min on Sept 13, 2016 20:36:19 GMT
Of course this would also put Gendry, Edric, and Mya into play as well. Possibly but they are missing the Lyanna connection. I can see Gendry showing up to forge some swords and a hero's reprieve.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 13, 2016 20:37:02 GMT
the arrival/transformation of the prophesied figure appears to require that somebody " kill the boy." Am I jumping to conclusions, there? Possibly. But Melisandre's interest in Edric Storm is notable and peculiar - and her determination to use the boy as blood sacrifice coincides with her pleas to Stannis that he let her " wake the stone dragon." Meanwhile... just before leaving Jon the Jade Compendium, and bookmarking the AA story, Maester Aemon gives his final advice to the young Lord Commander. He says: " Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born." And of course, in Dany's storyline, the final quickening of her dragon eggs happens immediately after the death of her newborn boy Rhaego. This reminds me of a thread I had planned to start and then forgot about....I'll post it here though, as it's relevant to the kill-the-boy idea. We've all known "those" posters from various online locales that tend to have the eyebrow-disappearing, "ummm, okay", WTF-inducing posts containing lots of totally insane ramblings and crackpot so crackpot you're almost convinced it was put forth as a joke, but it's totally not and this person really is that nuts. Time-travelling fetuses, whomping weirwoods, Karl Ned, whatever. We've all seen them. Ha, that sounds like at least half of my posts. The problem is when you're really staring at the symbolism, and trying to make everything fit, you kind of lose track of the narrative sense of the theory. Then you put your various "brilliant" intuitive leaps together into one cohesive theory and you realize that it now sounds kind of crazy. (Of course that never stops me from hitting the "create post" button, because after all it took a lot of work to write the crap). I had/have a theory that I loved in my head, about Tyrion being a genetic chimera of Obery and Twyin, and Oberyn actually being the son of Aerys, ect. and it seemed great when I was working it out, but I have to admit when I put it down on paper, it seemed like absolute crazy gibberish.
Of course, I've been told that many of GRRM's works have had pretty bizarre twists at the end, so who knows.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 13, 2016 20:37:10 GMT
Of course this would also put Gendry, Edric, and Mya into play as well. And the girl running the Inn at the Crossroads at the moment. Can't remember her name. I want to say Bella, but I'm not sure. She has the Baratheon look and was also born in a brothel, just like Bara. But the reason I picked Shireen is that she is half stone already with her greyscale, so what would happen if she kills the girl and lets the woman be born? If Dany can be in the frame as the PtwP, then so can Shireen.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 13, 2016 20:40:44 GMT
Ha, that sounds like at least half of my posts. Hey now, it's called GENIUS. 4D operators in a 3D world, nothing wrong with that! ( more than half of my posts qualify too )
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 13, 2016 20:44:54 GMT
Of course this would also put Gendry, Edric, and Mya into play as well. And the girl running the Inn at the Crossroads at the moment. Can't remember her name. I want to say Bella, but I'm not sure. She has the Baratheon look and was also born in a brothel, just like Bara. But the reason I picked Shireen is that she is half stone already with her greyscale, so what would happen if she kills the girl and lets the woman be born? If Dany can be in the frame as the PtwP, then so can Shireen. Of course Mya is Mya "Stone" if George wants to go that route. Hmmm, she is a natural climber, and Old Nan tells Bran that he got his love of climbing from his great-grandmother Arya Flint, who would also be Lyanna's grandmother, you don't suppose... nah.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 13, 2016 20:50:48 GMT
Of course Mya is Mya "Stone" if George wants to go that route. Hmmm, she is a natural climber, and Old Nan tells Bran that he got his love of climbing from his great-grandmother Arya Flint, who would also be Lyanna's grandmother, you don't suppose... nah. Hang on though, don't the Starks have distant relative in the Vale? So maybe.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 14, 2016 15:36:39 GMT
the arrival/transformation of the prophesied figure appears to require that somebody " kill the boy." Am I jumping to conclusions, there? Possibly. But Melisandre's interest in Edric Storm is notable and peculiar - and her determination to use the boy as blood sacrifice coincides with her pleas to Stannis that he let her " wake the stone dragon." Meanwhile... just before leaving Jon the Jade Compendium, and bookmarking the AA story, Maester Aemon gives his final advice to the young Lord Commander. He says: " Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born." And of course, in Dany's storyline, the final quickening of her dragon eggs happens immediately after the death of her newborn boy Rhaego. This reminds me of a thread I had planned to start and then forgot about....I'll post it here though, as it's relevant to the kill-the-boy idea. We've all known "those" posters from various online locales that tend to have the eyebrow-disappearing, "ummm, okay", WTF-inducing posts containing lots of totally insane ramblings and crackpot so crackpot you're almost convinced it was put forth as a joke, but it's totally not and this person really is that nuts. Time-travelling fetuses, whomping weirwoods, Karl Ned, whatever. We've all seen them. However...every so often, if/when you can bear to put on your high boots and wade through the lunacy, you realize that in some cases, when the stars have aligned just so, there's a chance that this nutcase actually got it right. I ran across one of these the other day, a contributor to a LmL thread that even LmL refused to argue with because it was so out there. BUT..read the below. " Blood magic + sacrificing one's child + sacrificing oneself = becoming the *blank*. A second life as the *blank*. Where *blank* is the animal/beast on hand. The child seems to merely be the catalyst, a bolster, its blood line important.
Euron understands. He knows he needs a heir worthy of him. That is he needs a dragon blooded child in order to sacrifice to achieve his goal of a second life inside a dragon, Drogon. He needs Dany to bear him a dragon blooded child, hence why he's all about marrying her. He seems to have worked out he needs to kill himself too, hence jumping off the tower in order to fly. And it is ofcourse all because he wants to fly, skinchange a dragon, a second life as the dragon. ... The man has a horn called dragon binder, it reads blood for fire, fire for blood. That Rhaego's life, Dany's blood, was the cost of Dany's dragons has been hammered home. Euron has a specific requirement, dragon blooded Dany to produce him a worthy heir. And he has a dream, flying. Dragon, dragon dragon dragon. ... The AA story is about Dany trying to become pregnant. Sacred fiery flames of the temple her womb, the tempering sex and pregnancy, the failure, shattering, miscarriages. She needs to become pregnant because she needs a dragon blood child to sacrifice (recurring theme, the power of her dragons come at the cost of children, Rhaego, Hazzea) to repeat the process and fix Drogon, to wake him from the stone, cure him of Euron. She repeatedly fails by way of miscarriages by Aurane Waters (water) and Tyrion (lion). Then she finds Jon and succeeds (I will never father a bastard, you know nothing Jon Snow. Dany could not remember the little girl's name and that was the saddest thing of all. I will never have a little girl of my own). Only Jon being Jon, won't let her sacrifice the baby to restore Drogon and save the realm, the price Dany paid before and will be willing to again. To Jon that would be going Targaryen, and Jon will reject that way to stay Stark, a choice of fathers. Ice vs Fire. Recurring theme, the safety of an innocent child trumps all, including the whole of the realm, Ned (the father he'll never forget), Stannis, Davos, their dead girl in the tower Shireen, Craster, baby swapping, Gilly's child called monster. What kind of monster would give a babe to the living flames? We are both monsters, Daario and I. " This poster is known for some rather, ah, creative theories, so there's a bunch of mumbo jumbo in there that can probably be excluded. I bolded the parts that stood out for me; all these thoughts tie back to "kill the boy". We see the Targaryen obsession with dragons in Aemon's own brother, who just so happened to die in the fires of Summerhall. Who lived? The baby, Rhaegar. But...there was no real dragon, only the dragon prince. Bring in the TOJ and the fishiness with it, the symmetry between TOJ details and MMD's tent ritual. We have no real conclusions from that other than possibly a baby emerged from there in some fashion. Again though...a living child - and no dragon. DANY'S ritual, however...baby Rhaego dies - and voila, dragons. IMO, "kill the boy" is a requirement. In that regard, I wonder if we should revisit the Nissa Nissa/Azor Ahai story and look at it in terms of child sacrifice. The time frame in the legend equals 180 days, roughly 6 & change lunar months or the duration of a 'visible' pregnancy, and NN's part in it does reflect some strong birth symbolism. Sacrificing her child to make the magic happen would certainly bring about a "cry of anguish and ecstasy." Yes, this. I agree that the blood magic ritual must include the sacrifice of a child, although I am thinking that the original Nissa Nissa/Azor Ahai version was many Children/Singers/Greenseers. Whenever humans tried to replicate the ritual it had to be an equal sacrifice and what greater sacrifice is there than your own child?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 14, 2016 16:10:32 GMT
what greater sacrifice is there than your own child? Yup. Totally goes along with Faceless Men doctrine too. Melisandre and MMD both talk about "the price they paid" to learn blood magic - what was it? Interestingly, Marwyn has yet to make mention of a price when HE learned it. Mel also mentions that the blood/soul of a new infant babe full of innocence is the most precious gift that could be offered to R'hllor...an older child is, yanno, OKAY, which is why she's trying to coerce Stannis into handing over Edric Storm, but it's clearly not her ideal choice. To work the serious juju, you need a baby - with king's blood, of course.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 14, 2016 17:18:55 GMT
To work the serious juju, you need a baby - with king's blood, of course. Didn't Mel say later on that to wake the/a dragon from stone would require two sacrifices? The father first (Mance), then the son (Aemon Steelsong), so that they both die Kings? Sounds to me like she's winging it.
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Post by snowfyre on Sept 14, 2016 17:39:39 GMT
Didn't Mel say later on that to wake the/a dragon from stone would require two sacrifices? The father first (Mance), then the son (Aemon Steelsong), so that they both die Kings? Sounds to me like she's winging it. Not winging it. (ETA: Well, not in this particular case anyway - because it's not Mel we hear say that.) Actually, that's one of the key texts that got me rereading Dany's narrative in terms of it being the story of the DtwP. Check it out: Those appear to be words recited from verse - likely lines from a prophecy. And if looking back to Dany's chapters in AGOT, we can identify a moment in her story that corresponds very closely to it. Immediately after Drogo's khalasar comes upon the Lhazareen town, and defeats a smaller khalasar: Notably, that is the same chapter in which Dany meets Mirri Maz Duur... and in which she first explicitly identifies herself as a dragon: This may also have been the giveaway, for me, that the Dothraki work khal can be translated directly as "king."
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