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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 2, 2016 21:58:03 GMT
One more Tyrell connection to work in -
There was a cousin of Mace, Victor Tyrell, that was slain by the Smiling Knight of the Kingswood Brotherhood. Victor was old enough to be married and have children before his death, but...the association is there.
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 2, 2016 22:18:19 GMT
I'm not saying that the Kingswood Brotherhood was Lannister men, but I think they posed as them hoping that if they were seen that people would think they were the Kingswood Brotherhood.
Kevan Lannister abducted nobles that owed house Lannister money and held them for ransom, and I think his experience helped pull off Lyanna's abduction. I'm thinking there were the same number in the group as the actual KWB.
What strikes me strange or suspicious, depending upon how you look at it, is that Victor was slain by this group. If Tywin was trying to sabotage the alliance to turn houses against Rhaegar, then by slaying a Tyrell he may have been trying to cause division? The Tyrells may have only joined to be on Rhaegar's side. If Tywin didn't want the Tyrells and the Starks on the same side, then Victor's death might be blamed on him.
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Post by min on Dec 3, 2016 3:30:49 GMT
Ned's secrets:
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Post by min on Dec 3, 2016 18:47:59 GMT
Maester Walys - possibly Leyton Hightower's bastard kid - sent by the Citadel to spy and ingratiate himself with the Starks - Lyanna is fond of Flowers - Richard Stark trusts Flowers - Flowers (Citadel, Hightowers & Tryells) behind Southron Ambitions and Tully alliance - Tywin will not allow the Rose to bed the Direwolf and interferes - Rhaegar places the crown of roses on the wolf maid's lap exposing the proposed alliance - Ned Stark reaches for the crown of roses and has his finger pricked - Marriage alliance between Stark (Ned) and Tyrell foiled - Lyanna pregnant with Robert's child - Walys steals the wolfmaid on orders from the Citadel - intercepted by Kingswood Brotherhood - Lyanna runs insurgency as outlaw queen: Wenda the White Fawn - gives birth to Jon at the Quiet Isle amidst smoke and salt tears - Ned promises to protect and hide Jon- claims him as his own son - finds common woman to nursemaid called Wylla - sends them both south to Ashara Dayne - The Fisherman's Daughter story
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 3, 2016 19:36:58 GMT
I am with you on this Maester Walys - possibly Leyton Hightower's bastard kid - sent by the Citadel to spy and ingratiate himself with the Starks - Lyanna is fond of Flowers - Richard Stark trusts Flowers - Flowers (Citadel, Hightowers & Tryells) behind Southron Ambitions and Tully alliance - Tywin will not allow the Rose to bed the Direwolf and interferes - Rhaegar places the crown of roses on the wolf maid's lap exposing the proposed alliance - Ned Stark reaches for the crown of roses and has his finger pricked but then when we get to this - Marriage alliance between Stark (Ned) and Tyrell foiled - Lyanna pregnant with Robert's child I wonder, would it make sense to have Lyanna pregnant by Robert? Why would this be a threat to Rickard's alliance with the Tyrells? Also, I'm looking at potential Tyrell marriage alliances, and although Mace Tyrell had two sisters, I have no idea if either of them were slated for Ned. Olenna married both girls off to other Reach houses, which is pretty typical - although she could have wanted to arrange something with Rickard (there is a line in the text that indicates a degree of familiarity between them) re: Ned and one of her daughters, I don't remember anything else in the book that supports this idea. Losing my train of thought here, will have to come back
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 3, 2016 20:34:32 GMT
Maester Walys - possibly Leyton Hightower's bastard kid - sent by the Citadel to spy and ingratiate himself with the Starks - Lyanna is fond of Flowers - Richard Stark trusts Flowers - Flowers (Citadel, Hightowers & Tryells) behind Southron Ambitions and Tully alliance - Tywin will not allow the Rose to bed the Direwolf and interferes - Rhaegar places the crown of roses on the wolf maid's lap exposing the proposed alliance - Ned Stark reaches for the crown of roses and has his finger pricked - Marriage alliance between Stark (Ned) and Tyrell foiled - Lyanna pregnant with Robert's child - Walys steals the wolfmaid on orders from the Citadel - intercepted by Kingswood Brotherhood - Lyanna runs insurgency as outlaw queen: Wenda the White Fawn - gives birth to Jon at the Quiet Isle amidst smoke and salt tears - Ned promises to protect and hide Jon- claims him as his own son - finds common woman to nursemaid called Wylla - sends them both south to Ashara Dayne - The Fisherman's Daughter story hmmm. How old was Maester Walys during this time? Any way of finding out or estimating? It could be interesting if Lyanna ran away with Walys. Merrett Frey called Wenda the White Fawn "that poxy bitch", which I thought might be a connection to redspots. He of course sports a brand on his butt that she put there, which I can see a Lyanna with Arya's spirit doing. So, maybe Walys and Lyanna foiled an attempt by the fake Kingswood Brotherhood from taking her captive?
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Post by min on Dec 3, 2016 20:36:07 GMT
I am with you on this Maester Walys - possibly Leyton Hightower's bastard kid - sent by the Citadel to spy and ingratiate himself with the Starks - Lyanna is fond of Flowers - Richard Stark trusts Flowers - Flowers (Citadel, Hightowers & Tryells) behind Southron Ambitions and Tully alliance - Tywin will not allow the Rose to bed the Direwolf and interferes - Rhaegar places the crown of roses on the wolf maid's lap exposing the proposed alliance - Ned Stark reaches for the crown of roses and has his finger pricked but then when we get to this - Marriage alliance between Stark (Ned) and Tyrell foiled - Lyanna pregnant with Robert's child I wonder, would it make sense to have Lyanna pregnant by Robert? Why would this be a threat to Rickard's alliance with the Tyrells? Also, I'm looking at potential Tyrell marriage alliances, and although Mace Tyrell had two sisters, I have no idea if either of them were slated for Ned. Olenna married both girls off to other Reach houses, which is pretty typical - although she could have wanted to arrange something with Rickard (there is a line in the text that indicates a degree of familiarity between them) re: Ned and one of her daughters, I don't remember anything else in the book that supports this idea. Losing my train of thought here, will have to come back If Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert and Brandon to Catelyn; that only leaves Ned for Rickard's southron ambitions. If Walys is manipulating for the Hightowers and Tyrell's for a southern alliance; that means Ned on offer. Oleanna seems to consider Sansa for an alliance with her house; but Tywin will not see the Rose bed the Direwolf. I suspect this would apply to any alliance past and present. The whole thing is blown apart at the Tourney with the shaming of Lyanna - Robert and Lyanna who are the reverse/inverse story of Jenny of Oldstones 'with flowers in her hair'. Robert who doesn't want the crown; he only wants the girl. Everyone understands the implications of a bard (Rhaegar) giving Lyanna a crown of roses. War and bloodshed and a settling of scores between the Baratheons and Tarygaryens. The song of Jenny of Oldstones. The very thing to send Aerys over the edge. The outlaw rebel Robert Baratheon the greatest threat to House Targaryen since the Blackfyre rebellion. Everyone is left scrambling. I don't think we have to have anything specific on Ned except that the alliance is under consideration or may be offered. Especially with Walys pushing for it. It can't be with Dorne if they are aligned with Rhaegar. Tywin is sitting on the fence and playing both ends against each other looking for the opportunity whichever way the winds blows. With murders of Rickard, Brandon and other northern lords; war is on the horizon. It wouldn't surprise me if Lyanna went to the Eyrie with Ned and Robert for protection. I don't think it's unlikely that those going to war produce children before they leave for battle. Lyanna may have been a willing partner. Pregnancy and she is a valuable game piece something she would likely confide in Maester Walys. Who then steals her under orders from the Citadel after the murder of her father and brother. Benjen knows Lyanna left with Walys and tells Ned. She ends up with the Kingswood Brotherhood and runs her own insurgency. As Robert's betrothed; she is the outlaw queen (of love and beauty) to the outlaw rebel lord. And she's carrying his child; the white fawn. Wenda disappears and has her own song. Ned finds Lyanna on the Quiet Isle in her bed of blood; Jon born amidst salt and smoke (saltpans and smoking beehives). The silent brothers have no skill as midwifes. Lyanna's wolf blood leads her to this end. With Lyanna dead; Jon becomes Robert's successor and his life is under threat. Ned concocts the Wylla story and sends baby and nursemaid out of the war zone to safety with Ashara Dayne. So he knows exactly what happened to Lyanna and where to find Jon. This is the secret that is too dangerous to tell anyone including loved ones.
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Post by min on Dec 3, 2016 20:39:21 GMT
Maester Walys - possibly Leyton Hightower's bastard kid - sent by the Citadel to spy and ingratiate himself with the Starks - Lyanna is fond of Flowers - Richard Stark trusts Flowers - Flowers (Citadel, Hightowers & Tryells) behind Southron Ambitions and Tully alliance - Tywin will not allow the Rose to bed the Direwolf and interferes - Rhaegar places the crown of roses on the wolf maid's lap exposing the proposed alliance - Ned Stark reaches for the crown of roses and has his finger pricked - Marriage alliance between Stark (Ned) and Tyrell foiled - Lyanna pregnant with Robert's child - Walys steals the wolfmaid on orders from the Citadel - intercepted by Kingswood Brotherhood - Lyanna runs insurgency as outlaw queen: Wenda the White Fawn - gives birth to Jon at the Quiet Isle amidst smoke and salt tears - Ned promises to protect and hide Jon- claims him as his own son - finds common woman to nursemaid called Wylla - sends them both south to Ashara Dayne - The Fisherman's Daughter story hmmm. How old was Maester Walys during this time? Any way of finding out or estimating? It could be interesting if Lyanna ran away with Walys. Merrett Frey called Wenda the White Fawn "that poxy bitch", which I thought might be a connection to redspots. He of course sports a brand on his butt that she put there, which I can see a Lyanna with Arya's spirit doing. So, maybe Walys and Lyanna foiled an attempt by the fake Kingswood Brotherhood from taking her captive? I know. That's hilarious. Completely in spirit with Arya and Lyanna who will upend a tankard over your head as well. Someone who would dress up as the Knight of the Laughing Tree and thump her opponents. Something akin the the Knight of the Laughing Storm.
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 3, 2016 20:48:36 GMT
The whole thing is blown apart at the Tourney with the shaming of Lyanna - Robert and Lyanna who are the reverse/inverse story of Jenny of Oldstones 'with flowers in her hair'. Robert who doesn't want the crown; he only wants the girl. Everyone understands the implications of a bard (Rhaegar) giving Lyanna a crown of roses. War and bloodshed and a settling of scores between the Baratheons and Tarygaryens. The song of Jenny of Oldstones. The very thing to send Aerys over the edge. The outlaw rebel Robert Baratheon the greatest threat to House Targaryen since the Blackfyre rebellion. There is a ring of truth in the above. Jenny of Oldstones with "flowers in her hair"...HAR a pun-ny joke! I disagree though that Robert didn't want the crown. I think he did in the beginning. He just didn't realize how dull counting coppers would be. He wanted the fun parts, but not the reality of ruling. As for the crown of roses being a signal from Rhaegar to the Starks that he knew about the Tyrell proposal...I don't see that as a shaming. Just a signal that he knows. As for Aerys, he would be suspicious of what it meant, and I agree that he should know his history about Jenny of Oldstones and the Prince of Dragonflies, but Aerys didn't take Robert seriously as a threat until after Duskendale.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 3, 2016 21:09:56 GMT
With murders of Rickard, Brandon and other northern lords; war is on the horizon. It wouldn't surprise me if Lyanna went to the Eyrie with Ned and Robert for protection. I don't think it's unlikely that those going to war produce children before they leave for battle. Lyanna may have been a willing partner. Pregnancy and she is a valuable game piece something she would likely confide in Maester Walys. Who then steals her under orders from the Citadel after the murder of her father and brother. Benjen knows Lyanna left with Walys and tells Ned. She ends up with the Kingswood Brotherhood and runs her own insurgency. As Robert's betrothed; she is the outlaw queen (of love and beauty) to the outlaw rebel lord. And she's carrying his child; the white fawn. Issue here is that the KWB were defeated and dismantled before even the ToHH...Smiling Knight and Simon Toyne killed, Ulmer sent to wall, Wenda unknown. The KWB didn't continue to operate during the Rebellion.
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Post by min on Dec 3, 2016 21:18:45 GMT
With murders of Rickard, Brandon and other northern lords; war is on the horizon. It wouldn't surprise me if Lyanna went to the Eyrie with Ned and Robert for protection. I don't think it's unlikely that those going to war produce children before they leave for battle. Lyanna may have been a willing partner. Pregnancy and she is a valuable game piece something she would likely confide in Maester Walys. Who then steals her under orders from the Citadel after the murder of her father and brother. Benjen knows Lyanna left with Walys and tells Ned. She ends up with the Kingswood Brotherhood and runs her own insurgency. As Robert's betrothed; she is the outlaw queen (of love and beauty) to the outlaw rebel lord. And she's carrying his child; the white fawn. Issue here is that the KWB were defeated and dismantled before even the ToHH...Smiling Knight and Simon Toyne killed, Ulmer sent to wall, Wenda unknown. The KWB didn't continue to operate during the Rebellion. Damn! Who replaced them? Any other brotherhood?
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 3, 2016 21:27:25 GMT
First, note that Arya emphasizes riding with Gendry....so the real draw to this arrangement is companionship with the BASTARD OF A KING - refer to my crackpot on the Smiling Knight being a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre. Second, thinks that she could learn archery from Anguy...and member Fletcher Dick of the KWB has the association with arrows ("fletching"). OR, Lyanna riding with a bastard of a future king in her belly? Namely Robert. Unless I mistake your meaning here by positing that a Blackfyre is the father? I'm not saying Lyanna was pregnant while playing Wenda the White Fawn, just that in future she ends up with the bastard of Robert in her belly. **Sharna = innkeep of the Inn of the Kneeling Man: inn in the riverlands located near the spot where Torrhen Stark, King in the North, is said to have bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror. After Arya Stark is captured by the brotherhood without banners, she is brought to the inn. Her true identity is revealed when Harwin returns. Arya is recognized as Arya Stark by someone who knows her....now think to the ToHH when Lyanna publicizes herself by beating up the squires. What if *she* was also recognized - but in true inversion style, not recognized as Lyanna Stark, but as Wenda the White Fawn? And who would be in a position to recognize that? Wlia Martell, Gerold Hightower, and any ladies in Elia's retinue that may have been traveling with her through the Kingswood...like possibly Ashara Dayne. I think this is quite possible. IotKM is in the Riverlands, just northwest of Harrenhal. Lyanna disappeared in the Riverlands, supposedly when Rhaegar and his men "fell upon her". Lyanna's wolf blood got her killed. Arya and Sansa are the split echoes of Lyanna - each representing a path taken or choice made, with the other reflecting the opposite choice. I can agree with this and also think this has two meanings. Because Lyanna and Ashara's lives are intertwined somehow. Lyanna, as the marriage alliance between the north and the future king is the parallel to Myrcella, who was the marriage alliance between the throne and Dorne (south). Myrcella's handmaiden Rosamund is the parallel to Ashara the handmaiden to Elia. If I haven't lost you yet I imagine Ashara the handmaiden escaping Kings Landing just like Sansa. Sansa would be retracing Ashara's path to the Eyrie, while Arya retraces Lyanna's path which also brought her short of the Eyrie but nearby in the Saltpans. Somewhere in this vicinity these girls trade places. Lyanna stops being "Arya" and becomes "Sansa", while Ashara stops being "Sansa" and becomes "Arya". Lyanna/Sansa becomes the hostage that Sansa was when she was at Kings Landing, while Ashara escapes across the Narrow Sea like Arya. Arya makes the choice not to entertain the idea of being an outlaw with the BwB. She thinks it's something Sansa would like ....Sansa representing the alternate path, particularly the path with a romantic overtone. If Lyanna's story is echoed in both girls, did Lyanna the wolf girl make the Sansa choice? Did Lyanna Stark become Wenda the White Fawn? I am quite on board with Lyanna playing Wenda the White Fawn before the Tourney at Harrenhall and being recognized. I think it suits the Arya personality AND the Sansa personality of being this romanticized, swashbuckling outlaw. I wish we knew more about Walys, because I can see him as playing the leader...the Simon Toyne character...Lyanna loved and trusted Walys Flowers. Maybe they were close friends? Maybe Walys endeared himself to her in order to gain her trust and the trust of her father? A manipulator on par with Littlefinger.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 3, 2016 21:30:56 GMT
Damn! Who replaced them? Any other brotherhood? Nope. Current parallel is the Brotherhood Without Banners, of course, but there was no group in between.
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 3, 2016 21:36:23 GMT
There could have been three groups. The Kingswood Brotherhood is just the model (for lack of a better word).
Lyanna's insurgency group had 7 members, the real KWB had 7 members, and the group that kidnapped Lyanna had 7 members. All with personalities that matched the original group's members.
Known members of the Kingswood Brotherhood:
Simon Toyne - was the leader of the KWB Smiling Knight - Jaime called him “the Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big, but twice as mad.” Wenda the White Fawn - many readers theorize that she was Lyanna Oswyn Longneck - the Thrice-Hanged Big Belly Ben - nearly killed Lord Crakehall, but was deterred by Jaime. Ben escaped capture. Fletcher Dick - unknown fate Ulmer - captured and sent to the Wall
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Post by min on Dec 3, 2016 22:13:18 GMT
There could have been three groups. The Kingswood Brotherhood is just the model (for lack of a better word). Lyanna's insurgency group had 7 members, the real KWB had 7 members, and the group that kidnapped Lyanna had 7 members. All with personalities that matched the original group's members. Known members of the Kingswood Brotherhood: Simon Toyne - was the leader of the KWB Smiling Knight - Jaime called him “the Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big, but twice as mad.” Wenda the White Fawn - many readers theorize that she was Lyanna Oswyn Longneck - the Thrice-Hanged Big Belly Ben - nearly killed Lord Crakehall, but was deterred by Jaime. Ben escaped capture. Fletcher Dick - unknown fate Ulmer - captured and sent to the Wall As a template I suppose it works but the timelines don't support it. How long did Aerys have Brandon and Rickard in the dungeons before killing them? I still find timeline dates difficult to understand when only the year is stated. Was the brotherhood disbanded after the tourney; was it near the end of the year? Did Lyanna run when her brother was taken or after her father was taken. Was the Kingswood Brotherhood still in action at that point. ... That sort of thing always trips me up. I'll do some searches. ToHH - held 281 KWB - disbanded 281 Rickard and Brandon died 282 RR - starts 282 The Brotherhood was sheltered by the smallfolk of the Kingswood, preventing the royal forces from finding and ending the outlaws. However, Ser Arthur Dayne gained the confidence of the smallfolk, who had believed that the only ones protecting their rights was the Brotherhood. Arthur petitioned the king for better rights for the smallfolk and he made sure the royal forces paid for any items they took from the peasantry. Arthur's actions swung the allegiance of the smallfolk to the royal forces who could now hunt the Brotherhood, as the outlaws could no longer walk around with impunity in the forest.[1] In a notable clash, the young Jaime Lannister, Ser Arthur Dayne, and Ser Barristan Selmy faced off against several notable outlaws, including the Smiling Knight and their leader, Simon Toyne. Barristan killed Simon, while Arthur killed the Smiling Knight. Jaime regards the battle, in which he crossed swords with the Smiling Knight, as one of his fondest memories.[1] Other members of the Brotherhood included Wenda the White Fawn, Oswyn Longneck the Thrice Hanged, Big Belly Ben, Fletcher Dick and Ulmer. All members are presumed dead except Ulmer, who joined the Night's Watch to avoid execution.
I still find timeline dates difficult to understand when only the year is stated. Was the brotherhood disbanded after the tourney; was it near the end of the year? How much older than Rob is Jon.
Some members including Wenda got away and are presumed dead.
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