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Post by min on Dec 11, 2016 6:36:10 GMT
I'm finding the story of the Wild Hares rather compelling. House Tallhart (tall heart as in weirwood tree?)has it's seat in Torrhen's square. Just north is Deepwood Motte and then Bear Island. The entire area is forested - the Wolfswood and House Tallhart is closest to Winterfell. It would make sense that Lyanna fled into the Wolfswood from Wintrfell first.
The Wild Hares are a band of youth with a code of chivalry who race around the countryside on horses defending the weak. They imagine themselves to be young wolves. Then we have Jon's question: the hare, the doe, the she-wolf and Ned's realization that Sansa gives him the answer to the question of Cersei's bastards. Then Arya identifies Jon as the bastard when she overhears the conversation between Illyrio and Varys.
I'm getting the sense that Lyanna fled to the wolfswood and hid with the Tallharts if the story of the wild hares is a parallel story and we are getting a clue from Jon about his mother. She had streak of wildness in her according to Ned.
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 11, 2016 15:05:18 GMT
While a baby rabbit is a kitten or kit -- Kit Harington Baby fox are kits too.
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Post by min on Dec 12, 2016 9:14:26 GMT
Titan's Madonna and the rabbit. Christian symbolism for rebirth and the easter bunny.
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 12, 2016 12:11:09 GMT
Rabbits are known for their fertility. Eostre (Easter) is a Germanic goddess of fertility, and of the dawn and light. Eost or east of course the direction of the rising sun. It makes me think of the Wheel of Time character Rand al Thor aka He Who Comes With the Dawn, the Dragon Reborn. ruh roh
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Post by min on Dec 12, 2016 18:26:00 GMT
And that the Wild Hares would show up in Theon's dream which includes Lyanna. I'm wondering if there is a connection. There is - certainly related to treachery, although that may not be the only one. I'll just link the full list of characters and their untimely ends from Heresy 155 - everyone at the Feast of the Slain has earned their spot at the table due to treacherous and deceptive behavior by others that led to a premature death. (Well, not Theon...Theon is representing another character from a different literary work in this particular scene. IMO) This includes Benfred Tallhart. Interesting idea of Lyanna fleeing to the Wolfswood - I had worked out in some other thread here that Ned and his 6 TOJ companions all represented lands that form a fairly solid western border defense in the North. Tallhart is not one of them though, nor is Flint. There's a house rep from every major geographical area west of the Kingsroad in Ned's merry band of 7, save Torrhen's Square and the Stony Shore. Wonder why that is....hmmmm. Interesting link. The possibility that Jon Arryn sanctioned the death of Elia's children is interesting. Including the death of unborn children as well, if Lysa is anything to go on. Lysa proven fertile and then married off to Jon Arryn against her wishes. If Jon Arryn made a backroom deal with Tywin to marry Robert and Cersei for political power; they would have to get rid of Lyanna and the Starks. Lyanna must have found out and fled. Or was lured out of Winterfell. The question is whether or not she was resourceful enough to evade capture and how is it that we place Jon Snow with Starfall. All the Starks kids are familiar with the Wolfswood to some degree and the Tallharts are the closest House to Winterfell. When Ned decides to send Sansa and Arya back to Winterfell; he tells Rory to call the Tallhart banners first. The Tallharts seem to be frequent visitors at Winterfell given Bran's recollection of them. It would make sense that this would be true for Lyanna and Ned as well. The Wolfswood is located in such a way that travel by river or ship would be easy from different access points if she was moving south. I would assume that she left when her father and brother were taken prisoner. My guess is that Varys discovered her whereabouts and had her poisoned with tears of lys.
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Post by min on Dec 12, 2016 23:10:23 GMT
What season of the year do storms occur at Dragonstone and Starfall? Anyone know?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 12, 2016 23:18:32 GMT
Dragonstone = Fall The Narrow Sea is basically the Gulf/Atlantic
Not sure about Starfall.
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Post by min on Dec 12, 2016 23:40:35 GMT
Dragonstone = Fall The Narrow Sea is basically the Gulf/Atlantic Not sure about Starfall. Yah, I was just searching the text. If Dany was born in the summer during a great storm; not sure she was born at dragonstone. I think storms occur in the summer in the south. (deleted text)
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Post by min on Dec 13, 2016 14:53:36 GMT
Jon does in fact have long brown hair. A gust of wind sent icy tendrils wending through his long brown hair. (Jon IX, ASOS 69) A love struck prince.... blah! www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/5ggsle/grrms_visit_to_mexico_highlightsmy_experience/Rhaegar may have been 'love struck' but it doesn't mean he acted on it other than stirring up shit at the tourney which others used to their advantage. Lyanna was 'willfull' and more likely to act or behave like Maege or Lyanna Mormont or Wylla Manderly in defense of her family rather than like Sansa with her head in the clouds regardless of Rhaegar's 'feelings'. Where is the silver hair and purple eyes? In fact I think Rhaegar is a bit of dingbat if he thought that giving Lyanna a crown of roses would end in anything but war. Not the kind of sound judgement you want in your next king.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 13, 2016 17:41:55 GMT
If Dany was born in the summer during a great storm; not sure she was born at dragonstone. Yep - I waffle between her being born at not-Dragonstone during the summer storm (=her given birthplace is a lie), and at-Dragonstone but not during the summer (=her given name day is a lie). I can't decide.
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Post by min on Dec 13, 2016 20:35:42 GMT
It makes a difference if Jon is 8 to 9 months older. It's would be the only way to figure out Jon's BD. She's had her moon blood but we don't know when or how often and her breasts are only starting to develop.
Average age is 12-13 but as late as 14 or 15 for moon blood. I don't think she can be older than 14. If she has a 'woman's shape'; I'm thinking older than 13. Budding breasts or small breasts might not mean that much since that can begin much earlier or later.
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Post by min on Dec 13, 2016 21:26:42 GMT
Of course there are a lot of references to battles described as 'storms'. I wonder if she is battle born?
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Post by min on Dec 13, 2016 22:24:56 GMT
So here is an interesting bit from the Prologue in aCoK. The white raven has just been recieved at Dragonstone heralding the end of summer. Maester Cressen is talking to Stannis:
So did Stannis force Dany and Viserys out in 286 or 284? It seems to me that Robert wouldn't have given Renley precedence over Storm's End before the older Stannis which seems to be his main complaint. It sounds like Stannis took Dragonstone and then Robert awarded Renley with Storm's End.
There's a two year gap between when Dany is supposedly born and when Dragonstone is taken by Stannis.
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Post by Melifeather on Dec 13, 2016 22:45:01 GMT
So here is an interesting bit from the Prologue in aCoK. The white raven has just been recieved at Dragonstone heralding the end of summer. Maester Cressen is talking to Stannis: So did Stannis force Dany and Viserys out in 286 or 284? It seems to me that Robert wouldn't have given Renley precedence over Storm's End before the older Stannis which seems to be his main complaint. It sounds like Stannis took Dragonstone and then Robert awarded Renley with Storm's End. There's a two year gap between when Dany is supposedly born and when Dragonstone is taken by Stannis. Stannis was under siege while holding Storm's End for Robert. I don't know why Stannis is so angry. The heir apparent is supposed to have Dragonstone.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Dec 13, 2016 23:02:55 GMT
So Stannis shows up like a storm and destroys the Targaryen fleet during the summer; 13 years past. If the current year is 299 (based on Ned's death); that would date the siege at 286. That's a full two years after Dany's supposed birth of 284. There's a two year gap here if Dany and Viserys were forced out of Dragonstone in 286. There's a gap, yes, but not that big. Obviously Stannis couldn't start building the fleet to launch the attack on Dragonstone until the Siege was lifted. Multiple POVs - in particular, Davos - put that toward the end of 283...like late 3Q maybe. I think I worked out August-ish for Davos delivering his onions; Davos' onions allowed Stannis and his remaining men to bear out the remainder of the Siege, which I believe was another fortnight give or take. So Ned lifts the Siege in late Q3, probably September or so, which would be approximately 1 year after the Battle of Ashford when Mace Tyrell first got involved. Ned heads to the TOJ; Robert tasks Stannis with building a fleet & setting sail to attack Dragonstone. This takes about a year. (This is mentioned in the text somewhere, I think by Stannis himself.) So, Q3 or so of 284 before he's dropping oars in the water. That means that Stannis' fleet would have been sailing the Narrow Sea at the absolute worst time of year - hurricane season, more or less. In the meantime, Dany is supposedly born on Dragonstone 9 moons after the flight from KL - which would work out to be around May/June...a summer baby. The summer storm that gave Dany her name was said to have happened BEFORE Stannis set sail, smashing the Targ fleet and leaving them defenseless. Stannis launched his fleet soon after, and Willem Darry fled with the kids. Dany was a "babe" needing a wet nurse, but we don't know how old. So it works out timewise with the "official" story - however, to me, this Dany timeline completely blows the "Jon was newborn at the TOJ/was born around the time of the Sack/Ned found Lyanna dying of childbed fever/is 8-9 months older than Dany" theory out of the water...or at least one of those "known" events in that tale, anyway, because all four of those things cannot be simultaneously true. anyway, my main point was that there is plenty of wiggle room for Dany to be born at either a different time or in a different place and still be 8-9 months younger than Jon. I think there was another baby at Dragonstone, and/or Dragonstone served as a drop point in between lifting of Siege & assault on Dragonstone.
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