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Post by Melifeather on Aug 16, 2016 15:49:19 GMT
Is Petyr's angle really about revenge against the Tullys? Is taking back everything that Hoster denied him Littlefinger's real long game? And, if we bring in the "second bloodline" idea, what else is he trying to avenge? There has to be another side to the coin; his plan is too large. So... Jon Arryn's murder, claiming Tyrion was behind attacking Bran, Joff's murder. These were only ways of setting up the Starks, and had nothing to do with animosity towards the Lannisters? Not that you said that, only thinking out loud. I vote "yes" to this. Great analysis by the way, Some Pig!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 16, 2016 16:07:31 GMT
It occurs to me.
Know how it always comes up in discussion... at least I bring it up occasionally... that something strange must have motivated Brandon to basically commit suicide by storming into KL demanding that the Prince come out and die? First of all, Rhaegar wasn't even there. If Brandon got the news that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar, why would he think Rhaegar was in KL? Or maybe the news was something else, but regardless, he believed Rhaegar was in KL and Brandon was going to fight/kill him. And again, it was basically a suicide mission.
Further, Rickard didn't even try to negotiate/explain things? "Look, Brandon acted rashly, but Lyanna is missing. WTF is going on?" Instead, they both get tortured/fried/boiled. What else was going on there?
And who would profit from Brandon getting killed before he was able to marry Cat. Heh.
Brandon found out something about that made him go to KL right after the duel with Petyr. Then the Rebellion starts, at some point Petyr sends Cat a letter that she burns, etc, but she was already promised to Ned by then.
Ergo Petyr wrote Brandon a letter, and in that letter he lied about something so dire that it ended up with Brandon and Rickard dead.
Petyr is the source of the "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna" lie.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 16, 2016 16:23:06 GMT
These were only ways of setting up the Starks, and had nothing to do with animosity towards the Lannisters? Well, that depends...if Petyr is actually a Reyne descendant or from some other line screwed over by Tywin, then he could be absolutely killing two birds with one stone. hence, why I think he's got more than one revenge scheme at play here. If Brandon got the news that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar, why would he think Rhaegar was in KL? Or maybe the news was something else, but regardless, he believed Rhaegar was in KL and Brandon was going to fight/kill him. And again, it was basically a suicide mission. And I think Hoster Tully knew this....hence the "gallant fool" comment. Does that mean Hoster suspected that his former ward had something to do with it? Perhaps we need to dive into some Theon parallels at the point he 'turns' against the Starks. Brandon found out something about that made him go to KL right after the duel with Petyr. Not right after...he had that mystery errand to run first. The one that GRRM refuses to discuss. He was on his way back to Riverrun when he got the news; Littlefinger had already been sent away. Which makes me think: Was Brandon Stark serving as a messenger boy for Hoster Tully in some kind of political move???
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 16, 2016 16:36:03 GMT
You know I want him to be a Reyne. Somewhere on the board, I need to start a discussion about Tolkein's Castamir so we can dissect that and try to identify possible players. Oh right, the damned mystery errand. "Gotta do something, BRB to marry you Cat." Petyr was still at Riverrun at that point (for two weeks after the duel), though Cat says she never saw or spoke to him. During this time, he impregnates Lysa. Still. Hrm. Trying to piece together how long Brandon was gone before he headed to KL.
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Post by min on Aug 16, 2016 16:51:22 GMT
It occurs to me. Know how it always comes up in discussion... at least I bring it up occasionally... that something strange must have motivated Brandon to basically commit suicide by storming into KL demanding that the Prince come out and die? First of all, Rhaegar wasn't even there. If Brandon got the news that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar, why would he think Rhaegar was in KL? Or maybe the news was something else, but regardless, he believed Rhaegar was in KL and Brandon was going to fight/kill him. And again, it was basically a suicide mission. Further, Rickard didn't even try to negotiate/explain things? "Look, Brandon acted rashly, but Lyanna is missing. WTF is going on?" Instead, they both get tortured/fried/boiled. What else was going on there? And who would profit from Brandon getting killed before he was able to marry Cat. Heh. Brandon found out something about that made him go to KL right after the duel with Petyr. Then the Rebellion starts, at some point Petyr sends Cat a letter that she burns, etc, but she was already promised to Ned by then. Ergo Petyr wrote Brandon a letter, and in that letter he lied about something so dire that it ended up with Brandon and Rickard dead. Petyr is the source of the "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna" lie. Oh, was this another false letter akin to the Pink Letter? A way of getting Brandon out of safety and into Kingslanding where the king was sure to end him? Starks are prickly beasts you know. Now who could have done that I wonder. lol Was the letter sent to Cat meant to do the same thing? Who is coaching Petyr? Or who would benefit? Tywin Lannister?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 16, 2016 17:03:05 GMT
another false letter akin to the Pink Letter AH. A great connection between Abel/Mance and Bael/Baelish. Not saying that Mance wrote the Pink Letter but he's heavily involved in surrounding events. Now can this be related to Petyr and Brandon?
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Post by min on Aug 16, 2016 17:10:41 GMT
Now can this be related to Petyr and Brandon? That's what I'm thinking, if he delivered the message. The sender may have wanted Petyr dead as well - getting rid of anyone who can talk. Something Baelish does with Ser Dontos. Given that Bealish used the same tactic later with Lysa's letter to Cat suggesting the Lannister killed Jon Arryn when it was Lyssa coached by Petyr. He also makes Cat into a weapon and redirects her towards Tyrion. So letters filled with lies and perhaps some truth and in the case of Brandon's (and Jon's) letter a lot of taunting. I suspect if Cat hadn't burned her letter; that Ned would have gone with Brandon to KL. But 16 is a bit young to be playing this game; so he must be a pawn at this point. Who is using him is the question. Were there lies or threats about Lyanna, I wonder. Lies about kidnapping and raping her; something to send Robert through the roof? Did Ned then send her into hiding with Howland? Lies meant to undermine Rhaegar and get rid of the Starks, Robert and Rhaegar. Or put a Lannister on the throne married to Robert. There's some traction here for Melifeather's theory.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 16, 2016 17:19:54 GMT
I think you are right, Weasel Pie to suspect Petyr of sending a letter or message incriminating Rhaegar in some way regarding Lyanna. The official history as reported by Robert is that she was kidnapped and raped, but who knows what Brandon actually "learned".
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Post by min on Aug 16, 2016 17:32:30 GMT
If the story even exists that Lyanna is a soiled woman; then Robert can't marry her. Enter Cersei and Lannister financing. If there is a potential threat to Lyanna, Ned has to hide her. There isn't anything to explain to Robert afterwards. Other than he found her.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 16, 2016 17:37:44 GMT
Trying to piece together how long Brandon was gone before he headed to KL. Yes, this. Ok, here comes thought barf. Some of you may remember some of my insistence back in Heresy days that Jon Arryn (St. Jon of Arryn, as BC says) is going to prove to be a major shadow player in Rebellion events. I've also talked some about how Hoster Tully was playing a huge game too - Rickard Stark was pegged for his southron ambitions, but IMO the driving force behind any STAB alliance was Hoster. He stood to gain big or lose big with pretty much everything. Anyhoo, re: Brandon and his errand. Brandon LEFT RIVERRUN after the duel with PB. Why the heck was he there? We have no idea. Then, after he fillets Littlefinger, he leaves Cat for this mystery errand and vows to BRB. K. Brandon, en route back to Riverrun, "heard about Lyanna"...and goes hell bent for leather WITH HIS POSSE OF VALEMEN - Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn, and Jeffory Mallister - toward King's Landing. Brandon's errand took him to the Vale. From Riverrun. Brandon hears about Lyanna on his way back to Riverrun. How would he have gotten this news on the road? What sits at the junction of the River Road (to Riverrun) and the High Road (to the Vale)? What place would be most convenient to a change in travel direction that would divert one from taking the river road and instead thundering down the Kingsroad to KL? THE INN AT THE CROSSROADS. Here's my wild and random thought: Petyr was on his way back to the Fingers, having been exiled by Hoster. Brandon was returning from the Vale. What if....they met again at the Inn? And Littlefinger decided to tell Brandon something about his sister that wasn't exactly true? That begs the question, how would Littlefinger know anything about Lyanna? Well, before leaving, he was being tended by two people at Riverrun - Maester Kym, and LYSA. Lysa Tully, who has proved in current story that she will lie and kill for Petyr Baelish. (Interesting also that Maester Kym seemingly died/disappeared during the Rebellion too - Kym gave Lysa the moon tea, but Luwin delivers Robb at Riverrun, and Maester Vyman has been maester there for many years now.) Something fun from the Wiki on Vyman: "Jaime resolves the siege of Riverrun. After the castle passes from House Tully to House Frey of Riverrun, Vyman remains in service to its new lord, Emmon Frey. When a message comes to Riverrun from King's Landing, Vyman accidentally reads its contents, which happened to be Queen Cersei Lannister declaring her love for her brother, Jaime. He brings the message to Jaime and tells him that the Citadel has declared that winter has come." OMG guys, my brain is spinning. We need to look at a Tully/Arryn conspiracy interrupted by Littlefinger.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 16, 2016 17:53:07 GMT
OMG yes to Jon Arryn being a big secret player! My wheels are spinning too! I'm sure parallels can be drawn with Catelyn and Tyrion at the inn.
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Post by min on Aug 16, 2016 18:09:42 GMT
Rickard Stark was pegged for his southron ambitions, but IMO the driving force behind any STAB alliance was Hoster. What is the STAB alliance?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 16, 2016 18:16:43 GMT
Stark Tully Arryn Baratheon
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 16, 2016 20:13:46 GMT
Stark Tully Arryn Baratheon There's a silent L in there for Lannister. STALB or STABL. lol It doesn't have quite the same ring to it, but I am convinced Tywin was in that alliance as a silent partner the whole time.
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Post by min on Aug 16, 2016 20:13:52 GMT
What do you make of this quote from WoIaF:
With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands, not ten leagues from Harrenhal . . . where Rhaegar would once again come face-to-face with Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and with her light a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.
Does this have something to do with Brandon's errand? Was he supposed to meet Rhaegar at Harrenhal? Is this what Lysa knew and told Petyr who added the lie that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna when they met at the Inn? That Petyr saw Rhaegar and company at the Inn and used it since it could be partially corroborated. Maybe is was Ashara being escorted from the Inn back South. If Lyanna was on her way to Riverrun and also ran into Petyr after Rhaeger was at the Inn; would he have lied to her as well? So she fled into hiding with Howland? That would be another account of someone seeing her at the Inn. Possibly mixed up stories and gossip over the lady who lit the fire with Rhaegar.
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