|
Post by min on Oct 27, 2016 1:44:44 GMT
Does anyone recall the statement from Martin to the affect that everything could be figured out from the first book? Was this in reference to a question about Jon Snow? Yes, who his parents were. I think I recall reading it on on the old heresy threads. It would be good to be able to reference it even if it was something Ran said. If the test for Jon's parents are: 1) a darth vader reaction to his father 2) revealed in GoT I think I'd be floored if this was revealed in Jon's very first POV. We have Jon saying "you're not my father" to Benjen pinpointing the chapter and Robert taking Ned's place on Cat's arm when they arrive for the banquet as well as Jon's disappointment over Schmobert. Robert is a kind of Tony Soprano character discussed by GRRM in his master class interview. A flawed character who loves his wife and family; but will screw any random woman who comes along. Someone who feeds the ducks in his pool one moment and beats the crap out of someone the next. Not a character you can like. I even question Robert's reaction to the news that Dany is pregnant when he becomes outraged and says he wants the whore and child killed. I wonder if this was his reaction to the rumor that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar; old stuff that is being dredged up.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Oct 27, 2016 1:49:36 GMT
If the test for Jon's parents are: 1) a darth vader reaction to his father Where is this from? As one of the "tests" I mean
|
|
|
Post by min on Oct 27, 2016 2:25:38 GMT
If the test for Jon's parents are: 1) a darth vader reaction to his father Where is this from? As one of the "tests" I mean Oh these are my tests. The Darth Vader statement comes from an interview with Alfie Allen who said that this was something GRRM told him. What did you ask him about in return? You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though. www.vulture.com/2012/06/game-of-thrones-theon-alfie-allen-interview.html?imw=Y A Game of Thrones - Jon I "You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son." Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."
|
|
|
Post by wolfmaid7 on Oct 27, 2016 2:48:57 GMT
I think I recall reading it on on the old heresy threads. It would be good to be able to reference it even if it was something Ran said. If the test for Jon's parents are: 1) a darth vader reaction to his father 2) revealed in GoT I think I'd be floored if this was revealed in Jon's very first POV. We have Jon saying "you're not my father" to Benjen pinpointing the chapter and Robert taking Ned's place on Cat's arm when they arrive for the banquet as well as Jon's disappointment over Schmobert. Robert is a kind of Tony Soprano character discussed by GRRM in his master class interview. A flawed character who loves his wife and family; but will screw any random woman who comes along. Someone who feeds the ducks in his pool one moment and beats the crap out of someone the next. Not a character you can like. I even question Robert's reaction to the news that Dany is pregnant when he becomes outraged and says he wants the whore and child killed. I wonder if this was his reaction to the rumor that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar; old stuff that is being dredged up. I'm lost? Where did this Darth Vader test come from?
|
|
|
Post by min on Oct 27, 2016 3:04:05 GMT
I'm lost? Where did this Darth Vader test come from? No, no, it's my own test. Does Jon's father meet the criteria for something like a darth vader character. Nobody remembers Alfie Allen's statememt? I've given the link and quote upthread. So no to Rhaegar, Ned and Arthur Dayne. Yes to Robert, Tywin and Aerys. But heavily weighted for Robert considering available opportunity; Jon's reaction to Robert and Robert's Tony Soprano nature. A potential reveal in Jon's first POV in GoT and the succession question to which GRRM makes a point comparing the whole situation to the War of the Roses between the Lancasters (Lannisters) and the Yorks. So not the Legend and tabloid romance but war for control of Westeros.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Oct 27, 2016 3:20:24 GMT
Oh these are my tests. The Darth Vader statement comes from an interview with Alfie Allen who said that this was something GRRM told him. What did you ask him about in return? You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though. Ah sure I know this interview, was a big deal at the time. List of "Luke Skywalker situations" - Raised by Uncle
- Unknowingly attracted to Sister
- Given a weapon that belonged to his father
- Becomes a Commander in a group of fighters against the evil enemy
- Unknowingly faces his father in a duel, loses his hand, then finds out his father is the evil enemy
- Father offers to teach him special powers
- Finds out he has a secret twin sister - the one he was attracted to earlier
- Fights and maims Father
- Father saves him instead and dies
- oh and his mother died in childbirth so this is the good part, because I believe Palpatine used Padme's Living Force to save the dying Anakin and help his rebirth as Darth Vader
so... yeah. The most important part of a "Luke Skywalker situation" seems to be a father that he meets.
|
|
|
Post by min on Oct 27, 2016 4:52:20 GMT
so... yeah. The most important part of a "Luke Skywalker situation" seems to be a father that he meets.Talk about zeroing in with your laser. Wow So then, how does Lyanna become pregnant by Robert? Did she succumb to him at some point considering they had been betrothed for some time. Did she then discover than in spite of sharing his bed; he still screwed around with random women. Is this why she says that love is sweet; but it doesn't change a man's nature. Why Ned insists that marriage will change Robert. She already knows otherwise?
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Oct 27, 2016 14:26:35 GMT
how does Lyanna become pregnant by Robert? I don't think she did? ... you know I'm that crazy guy who thinks Jon's father was an Other/the Night's King, right? I can't think of any other character that even comes close to Darth Vader. But it's not so cut and dried, since we don't know much about the Night's King from Old Nan's story other than he was possibly a Stark, who had a "corpse queen" which would fit into the idea that Lyanna was "dead" when she birthed Jon (and his twin). Also we can be pretty sure that the Corpse Queen was an Other, based on her blue eyes, but she would be the only female Other we know about. Not sure where the idea came from that female Others are in short supply but the idea is out there. I don't think Lyanna became an Other, but she could have been "coldhanded" by whatever process made Coldhands who he is. FTR pretty sure you all know I'm not necessarily on board with Lyanna ever being at the ToJ. Regardless, I think she was dead when she gave birth, just like the direwolf in Chapter One. Further, if Bran the Timelord turns out to have the abilities I think he'll have - to live a thousand lives, literally - he could possibly be the Night's King. And he could possibly be Jon's father in any number of scenarios - by appearing to be/skinchanging someone else. /ramble tldr; Darth Vader's parallel in ASoIaF is the Night's King (and that could be anyone) or whatever mysterious leader of the Others that we haven't heard about yet.
|
|
|
Post by min on Oct 27, 2016 15:00:55 GMT
In your characteristics list; I would attribute some of these things to Cersei/Jaimie (twins, falling in love with your sister); Padme (Lyanna) giving birth to Annikin (Jon) who is later compromised/advised by the Emporer (Melisandre) and going down the dark path to power. I don't think Martin is sticking to his original plan that Jon would fall in love with his sister. I think he parcelled these characteristics out to several characters.
He couches it all within a loose framework of the War of the Roses; a matter of who will succeed to the throne and depose a king going mad.
I have a sense that Euron will play a kind of night's king role with cersei as his corpse queen or (lannister) rock wife although he is styling himself as Azor Ahai. He may even end up binding Melisandre to his will as his salt wife. The binding horns could have something to do with how he controls the other sorcerers. How does Melisandre bind Mance body and soul to herself?
Ramsey Snow could end up another version of the Nights King if he ends up at the Night Fort. I'm guessing that Jon will end up the true Night's King but this will be something Bran controls.
|
|
|
Post by jnr on Oct 27, 2016 15:01:50 GMT
|
|
|
Post by min on Oct 27, 2016 15:22:57 GMT
No Martin wouldn't tell him; but I think we're getting a somewhat fuddled version of what Martin did tell him including all the usual ambiguities. I'm not sure where Alfie would get the luke skywalker notion out of thin air. As stated, it sounds like Martin told him something; but I don't think Alfie is claiming that he was given the answer. The statement should probably read: I asked him who Jon's parents were and he told me this.....
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Oct 27, 2016 15:48:43 GMT
Yeah I don't think it's so literal, and I doubt GRRM mentioned Luke Skywalker. He could have said something like "his father turns out to be his greatest enemy" or "he's doomed to unknowingly fight his own father to the death" or something. The fact that he immediately brought up incest is strange too. Is this an all Stark affair? Then why bring up the Targs?
Remembering that his answer is about Jon's parentage, we'd need to hone in on what aspect of the Luke story is about parentage.
It's quite possible that all he meant was that Luke was raised by his Uncle.
|
|
|
Post by min on Oct 27, 2016 16:23:51 GMT
It's quite possible that all he meant was that Luke was raised by his Uncle. I don't think Martin would have told him that much. But I think Skywalker statement along with the War of the Roses comment does sound like Martin. He brings up the war of the roses in quite a few interviews. I'm not sure that Alfie get the Gilgamesh reference that Martin once used. Martin is a sci-fi fan after all.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Oct 27, 2016 16:24:26 GMT
TBH, I think the punctuation in that interview is incorrect and that alone has been misleading fans all these years. IMO the "I can't tell you who/Luke Skywalker situation" line is what George actually told Alfie, not what Alfie is telling the interviewer. This was a printed interview conducted by a journalist from New York City with an actor from London. I would not be surprised even a little bit if it turned out that Jennifer Vineyard did not interpret Alfie's natural speech patterning and sentence breaks correctly when transcribing for her piece.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Oct 27, 2016 16:26:28 GMT
"I can't tell you who/Luke Skywalker situation" line is what George actually told Alfie, not what Alfie is telling the interviewer. wow... that actually makes a ton more sense then GRRM spilling the magic beans to Alfie
|
|