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Post by jnr on Jul 1, 2016 14:43:49 GMT
The answer to most of your questions, wolfmaid7 , is that this graphic supposedly reflects the relationships between key players " at that moment in GoT history," when Ned " made his way to Dorne and found the Tower of Joy." Which is to say, the HBO graphic is exactly like the book appendices. All of which say Jon is Ned's bastard. None of which were ever respected for a day, by certain folks in another place, because they only reflected what the readership knew at that moment in time.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 1, 2016 17:17:01 GMT
Why the frack doesn't Robert have a crown,when people who have been dead long before he died are made sure to be labled "The royal family."They forgeting the Targs got their asses kicked and are no longer "The royal family." Who the frack would sit down and make a chart like this and why? What's the point? The answer to most of your questions, wolfmaid7 , is that this graphic supposedly reflects the relationships between key players " at that moment in GoT history," when Ned " made his way to Dorne and found the Tower of Joy." But you have to read the fine print a bit to get that. Obviously HBO's not going out of its way to do the sensible thing. Clearly labeling its graphic, for instance. Or including the phrase "Tower of Joy" in the article header. We just get this: So... just like all of the tower of joy related stuff... the "relationships" in this diagram are assigned far more importance than they deserve. Since " that moment in GoT history" brings together certain storylines that fans find fascinating, the scene comes pre-loaded with so much potential significance that most readers simply cannot see past it (or around it) in their assessment of character identities and plots. Which, of course, is exactly why it's been so helpful to Martin (and perhaps now HBO) for obscuring certain secrets. It's sort of like a solar flare in the narrative - scrambling fan interpretations the way solar radiation jams radio frequencies and power line transmissions. A brief eruption of intense high-energy narrative potential that leaves us wondering what we missed in that moment, and doubting whether the rest of the story can be relied upon without it. So we obsess over filling that gap, and assign it as much importance as we imagine it could bear. (How important could it possibly be? Let's assume it's that important!) Meanwhile, with our attention diverted... we miss and minimize other subtle (but crucial) things Martin's been carefully building all along in this complex, polyphonic Song of Ice and Fire.
Thanks Snowy...i didn't even see the header.Now i feel like a "Good Friday boobalee" ranting about that darn infographic.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 1, 2016 17:27:29 GMT
because they only reflected what the readership knew at that moment in time. Yeah, I'm thinking the infographic was made by someone at HBO (obviously not a writer) who thinks RLJ is a fact, based on what the majority of fan-sites put out there. Westeros treats it as a fact. And now all the reports say that HBO "confirms Rhaegar is the father" as if it were a known fact. So some random employee - who I'm certain didn't get inside info from the writers - threw this together based on googling "who is Jon Snow's father" and ironically would get "Rhaegar" as the answer based on all the stories saying HBO "confirmed" it in the season finale. what is this?? lol
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Post by snowfyre on Jul 1, 2016 17:30:19 GMT
Now i feel like a "Good Friday boobalee" ranting about that darn infographic. Ah, but you shouldn't. I mean, yeah... you feel like you should know better. But that's the way all this stuff works. I thought the same thing you did, soon as you pointed it out. Read the thing twice before I could figure out what they were doing. Nobody advertises the limits of the "solution" to these mysteries... everyone always just assumes it transforms the entire story in some permanent, unqualified way. This, of course, is why fans have always been so fixated on the royal lineage of the Targs - who've only just been "kings" for like, a split-second of Westerosi history. Nobody steps back far enough to see the whole picture, and just how unlikely it is that kingship would be what makes House Targ special. (This, by the way, is exactly what Aemon realizes before he dies - when he gets down to the issue of that "translation error." It wasn't about princes... it was about dragons!) But your question about the crown icons in the diagram cuts right to the chase: Why crowns on Targs? Because at that particular moment, they were batshit crazy enough to think they were royalty. LOL.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 1, 2016 17:54:50 GMT
New reddit post is now doing the rounds (and getting the poster job offers) about what Lyanna said Jon's real name is. I think it's doubtful because I'm not sure this poster understand the fake northern accent the actor was putting on. But the press has run away with little Jon 'Jaehaerys Targaryen' Snow.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2016 22:07:01 GMT
I am on my 3rd watch of the episode now. Overall I liked it a lot. BTW Weasel Pie , Cersei does say in regards to Tommen and his family being burned after their deaths, She says brother not brothers. I made sure to listen harder on my re-watch. As in regards to the Tower of Joy scene I too find it odd that the would have some ambiguity in the baby's name at this point. If it is true why just not confirm it? And then with the whole HBO info graphic situation I agree that in that moment of time RLJ seems most likely in show world. However with the inaudible name it leaves the ambiguity for a different outcome.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 1, 2016 23:30:33 GMT
because they only reflected what the readership knew at that moment in time. Yeah, I'm thinking the infographic was made by someone at HBO (obviously not a writer) who thinks RLJ is a fact, based on what the majority of fan-sites put out there. Westeros treats it as a fact. And now all the reports say that HBO "confirms Rhaegar is the father" as if it were a known fact. So some random employee - who I'm certain didn't get inside info from the writers - threw this together based on googling "who is Jon Snow's father" and ironically would get "Rhaegar" as the answer based on all the stories saying HBO "confirmed" it in the season finale. what is this?? lol Hahaha...its an effigy that symbolizes Judas when he made his "booboo" its beaten every Good Friday in the islands and hung as a fool. The term then grew to mean anyone who thinks they made a fool of themselves.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 1, 2016 23:41:58 GMT
Now i feel like a "Good Friday boobalee" ranting about that darn infographic. Ah, but you shouldn't. I mean, yeah... you feel like you should know better. But that's the way all this stuff works. I thought the same thing you did, soon as you pointed it out. Read the thing twice before I could figure out what they were doing. Nobody advertises the limits of the "solution" to these mysteries... everyone always just assumes it transforms the entire story in some permanent, unqualified way. This, of course, is why fans have always been so fixated on the royal lineage of the Targs - who've only just been "kings" for like, a split-second of Westerosi history. Nobody steps back far enough to see the whole picture, and just how unlikely it is that kingship would be what makes House Targ special. (This, by the way, is exactly what Aemon realizes before he dies - when he gets down to the issue of that "translation error." It wasn't about princes... it was about dragons!) But your question about the crown icons in the diagram cuts right to the chase: Why crowns on Targs? Because at that particular moment, they were batshit crazy enough to think they were royalty. LOL. Yep,when i read the entire article i saw it.It has stirrred a frenzy as it is being viewed as fact released by HBO.I was really HBO is in the inner circle of "know" now. This is worse than arguing over who Neegan killed on the show
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 2, 2016 3:55:51 GMT
This is worse than arguing over who Neegan killed on the show yup!
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Post by Maester Flagons on Jul 2, 2016 14:51:23 GMT
Who's Neegan?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 2, 2016 15:15:07 GMT
The most recent Walking Dead bad guy who beat someone to death with Lucille (his barbed wire-wrapped baseball bat) in the last season finale. Major cliffhanger, could be any one of several major characters.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 4, 2016 14:13:37 GMT
I need to grab some screenshots, but I had noticed blood on the bed and pillow next to Lyanna, which seemed odd. Last night, I noticed there's a big spot of blood on the floor behind Ned. Hrm.
And she's screaming bloody murder one second, then can barely breath/talk when he enters the room and is tucked under the covers the next. She did not just give birth during that scream, otherwise Ned would have walked into Lyanna, what, passing the afterbirth and the umbilical being cut or something. The baby is cleaned up, the attendants aren't all bloody either.
So what was she screaming about 3 seconds before he arrived? Poison? Bloody flux? Wounds? Something else?
And I realized this is exactly what I asked myself in the books, when comparing Lyanna screaming for Ned in his fever dream versus her voice barely a whisper in his actual memory of her deathbed.
So did D&D screw up and use the same (il)logic that RLJ embraces, or are they smarter than that? They left the door open for ambiguity.
And the more viewers believe RLJ, the better the shock will be in the end.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 4, 2016 16:30:24 GMT
The only way I can see of marrying the two things, the screaming and then the weakness caused by that amount of blood loss, is if they performed the world's worst C-section on her. I'm no midwife, but I do know of some complications that could cause them to do something like that, but it just seems unnecessarily barbaric for the setting of this world and the 'knowledge' of Lyanna having a royal child, to have such inexperienced midwives attending her.
Accounts from our own history, and in particular the War of the Roses, do indicate that if a royal baby was being birthed, the emphasis was on having the child survive, above the survival of the mother. However, only the cruellest of midwives would adhere to this because the amount of women that could actually bring royal children into the world was limited and better to have a known, fertile, young woman capable of giving them more than one child was highly priced. So to destroy the life of a healthy young woman for the sake of a possible heir (remember they did not know the sex of a child until it was born) was a 50/50 and not the best of ideas. The child after all could turn out to be a girl and you've lost both mother and all possibility of future heirs, since girls do not inherit.
And it especially does not ring true because of the care and attention that was given to Elia during and after her two births. Why would Lyanna's live be worthless if she, like Elia, is the daughter of the highest lord of the north?
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 4, 2016 16:45:44 GMT
I need to grab some screenshots, but I had noticed blood on the bed and pillow next to Lyanna, which seemed odd. Last night, I noticed there's a big spot of blood on the floor behind Ned. Hrm. And she's screaming bloody murder one second, then can barely breath/talk when he enters the room and is tucked under the covers the next. She did not just give birth during that scream, otherwise Ned would have walked into Lyanna, what, passing the afterbirth and the umbilical being cut or something. The baby is cleaned up, the attendants aren't all bloody either. So what was she screaming about 3 seconds before he arrived? Poison? Bloody flux? Wounds? Something else? And I realized this is exactly what I asked myself in the books, when comparing Lyanna screaming for Ned in his fever dream versus her voice barely a whisper in his actual memory of her deathbed. So did D&D screw up and use the same (il)logic that RLJ embraces, or are they smarter than that? They left the door open for ambiguity. And the more viewers believe RLJ, the better the shock will be in the end. I asked myself this question a few times when it came to some of the visuals.This led me to conclude these guys don't know subtly.They effed up on somethings and knew fans would be to goo eyed to question really ridiculous scenes.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Jul 4, 2016 17:05:23 GMT
1 part fever dream 1 part waking thought 2 parts fanfic Heat to boiling then serve over ice.
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