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Post by wolfmaid7 on Nov 29, 2016 5:48:29 GMT
I'm sure this has been discussed already but is there a specific reason why this isn't just the Planetos version of "when hell freezes over"? I honestly thought this myself.I always thought this was just MMD's way of saying "It ain't ever going to happen." I never got that this was actually a prophecy.
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Post by min on Nov 29, 2016 16:58:48 GMT
The sun is also represented by gold; so the sun/son could refer to Tyrion who leaves Ilyrio's manse through the sunrise gate. Essentially he has traveled from Westeros and arrived in Essos. West to east.
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Post by min on Nov 29, 2016 17:05:53 GMT
To reiterate some of my thoughts on the forging of the 'sword' and possibly House Lannister and Jaime/Tyrion represented as the second attempt at forging the sword.
My take on this prophecy is that Dany is showing every indication that she is the Prince who is Promised/Azor Ahai/the Stallion that Mounts the earth (or that these are all the same prophecy from different cultures). It is AAR who forges the sword Lightbringer and in the legend there are three attempts to forge the sword. Thus, 'three fires you must light'.
Dany also has to light three fires to forge the sword. The first attempt when the sword is plunged in water and broken in two; occurs when she instructs Mirri Maaz Duur to use blood magic to save Drogo's life. He is plunged into a bath of water and his body and mind separated or split in two. If he had lived, he would have been her sworn sword to use the Westerosi parlance; the one who would retake Westeros for her.
She herself seems to have died during childbirth and is reborn amidst smoke and salt tears; she has temporary immunity from fire and her tears steam off her cheeks. The heavy price she has to pay is her unborn son in the equation that death pays for life. So her son's life in payment for her life. She is herself the dragon with three heads: the mother of dragons (mother); daughter of death (maiden) and slayer of lies (crone). The three aspects of the Morrigan. On Drogo's death; Dany automatically becomes one of the crones of Vaes Dothrak; the Dothraki high holy place. So in each forging; she becomes one of the heads of the dragon.
If you view the prophecy each with a fire, amount, and a treason; it looks like this:
1) Mother of Dragons: For life, to bed, for blood
- Dany's life in exchange for her son's life, a bed of blood - Qotho accuses Dany of being a maegi, says he will kill her after killing MMD - failed forging of sword in water - Drogo plunged into a bath of water - soul and body separated, broken in two - Dany resurrected amidst salt tears and smoke - temporary immunity to fire; not fully transformed - death pays for life
- the first treason: a blood treason; the death of Drogo and Rheago
2) Daughter of Death: for death, to dread, for gold - failed forging of sword in the heart of a lion, sword is shattered and broken in two
- this could represent the shattering of House Lannister and splitting the 'lion' sword in two: Jaime, the golden man and Tyrion, the drunken god.
- the second treason: for gold; the theft of a dragon
3) Slayer of Lies: one to love, one to love, once for love - successful forging in a heart of fire - Dany loves her children, the dragons
- third treason: for love; Dany sacrifices the last dragon to forge the red sword itself.
When Dany arrives at Vaes Dothrak she will pass beneath the shadow of the Mother of Mountains where she will 'touch the light'. It's worth noting that Catelyn describes the crone as carrying a lantern. So literally lighting the way or bringing the light.
It's also worth noting that when MMD begins the fire and blood ritual; she warned Dany that she would call on powers old and dark; a dangerous path:
Melisandre would say that there can be no "light without dark". Dany sees the old and dark powers dancing around the fire in the sandsilk tent:
Melisandre sees the same vision of a man limned in flame:
So while Dany has never met Jon, Melisandre identifies the man wreathed in flame. I don't think this means that Jon is shown in a fiery incarnation; only that looking past a fire to something on the other side would make it appear as though they are wreathed in flame or limned in flame.
Dany represents the light to Jon's darkness; the fire and the ice. Dany as the crone, woke the old gods and opened the door to death allowing the first crow/raven to fly into the world. I think Jon is the three-eyed crow.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 29, 2016 17:23:23 GMT
I like a lot of your reasoning, but want to know more about why you think Tyrion will steal a dragon, and why Dany will end up sacrificing the "last" dragon?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Nov 29, 2016 17:24:09 GMT
So while Dany has never met Jon, Melisandre identifies the man wreathed in flame. wow this is fantastic, min Interesting that Mel sees him as both limned in flames and as the man/wolf, but Dany sees them as two separate shadows. Hrm.
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Post by min on Nov 29, 2016 17:59:50 GMT
I like a lot of your reasoning, but want to know more about why you think Tyrion will steal a dragon, and why Dany will end up sacrificing the "last" dragon? I don't think Tyrion will steal a dragon. That's more likely to be Victarion and possibly a treason by Dareon for gold. But symbolically House Lannister has been shattered and there is a certain significance to Jame the sword and Tyrion the brain being separated. And Ice being reforged into two swords for the parallel. On another level Tyrion's psyche has been shattered when he is chased by the bar sinister (some big bastard) across the sea into the Smoking Sea. Bran associates Jaime with the golden man while Tyrion shows up as the Drunken god. His two headed dream another splitting in two. I think in the end Dany and Jon will meet and to forge the actual Red Sword of heroes it must be plunged into the heart of the beast to draw out the fire just as we are told AA did at one time. I think it's Dany who will sacrifice Drogon for that purpose. And I might add that I think the great horn that Melisandre supposedly burned is actually a dragon binding horn, now hidden at the Wall. Why would Joramund have a dragon binding horn unless they are part of a past conflict. Melisandre says her place is at the wall as much as it is Jon's place. I wonder if she will blow the horn. Ultimately, you need a red sword for something...
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Post by min on Nov 29, 2016 18:00:42 GMT
So while Dany has never met Jon, Melisandre identifies the man wreathed in flame. wow this is fantastic, min Interesting that Mel sees him as both limned in flames and as the man/wolf, but Dany sees them as two separate shadows. Hrm. She also sees Bran and Bloodraven separately; with Bran wearing the wolf's head.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 29, 2016 18:21:12 GMT
I like a lot of your reasoning, but want to know more about why you think Tyrion will steal a dragon, and why Dany will end up sacrificing the "last" dragon? I don't think Tyrion will steal a dragon. That's more likely to be Victarion and possibly a treason by Dareon for gold. But symbolically House Lannister has been shattered and there is a certain significance to Jame the sword and Tyrion the brain being separated. And Ice being reforged into two swords for the parallel. On another level Tyrion's psyche has been shattered when he is chased by the bar sinister (some big bastard) across the sea into the Smoking Sea. Bran associates Jaime with the golden man while Tyrion shows up as the Drunken god. His two headed dream another splitting in two. I think in the end Dany and Jon will meet and to forge the actual Red Sword of heroes it must be plunged into the heart of the beast to draw out the fire just as we are told AA did at one time. I think it's Dany who will sacrifice Drogon for that purpose. And I might add that I think the great horn that Melisandre supposedly burned is actually a dragon binding horn, now hidden at the Wall. Why would Joramund have a dragon binding horn unless they are part of a past conflict. Melisandre says her place is at the wall as much as it is Jon's place. I wonder if she will blow the horn. Ultimately, you need a red sword for something... Yes. I makes sense that Victarion steals a dragon with the horn Euron gave him. It also makes sense for Dany to sacrifice one of her beloved dragons to forge Lightbringer, however what of Jon's dream where he's in black armor wielding the flaming sword? Does Dany hand it over to him to wield?
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Post by min on Nov 29, 2016 19:12:11 GMT
I don't think Tyrion will steal a dragon. That's more likely to be Victarion and possibly a treason by Dareon for gold. But symbolically House Lannister has been shattered and there is a certain significance to Jame the sword and Tyrion the brain being separated. And Ice being reforged into two swords for the parallel. On another level Tyrion's psyche has been shattered when he is chased by the bar sinister (some big bastard) across the sea into the Smoking Sea. Bran associates Jaime with the golden man while Tyrion shows up as the Drunken god. His two headed dream another splitting in two. I think in the end Dany and Jon will meet and to forge the actual Red Sword of heroes it must be plunged into the heart of the beast to draw out the fire just as we are told AA did at one time. I think it's Dany who will sacrifice Drogon for that purpose. And I might add that I think the great horn that Melisandre supposedly burned is actually a dragon binding horn, now hidden at the Wall. Why would Joramund have a dragon binding horn unless they are part of a past conflict. Melisandre says her place is at the wall as much as it is Jon's place. I wonder if she will blow the horn. Ultimately, you need a red sword for something... Yes. I makes sense that Victarion steals a dragon with the horn Euron gave him. It also makes sense for Dany to sacrifice one of her beloved dragons to forge Lightbringer, however what of Jon's dream where he's in black armor wielding the flaming sword? Does Dany hand it over to him to wield? I think in the end he's the one to wield the sword that she forges. That's my guess anyway. I'm not sure about his dream.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 29, 2016 19:27:23 GMT
Here is Jon's dream:
Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.
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Post by min on Nov 29, 2016 23:36:55 GMT
Here is Jon's dream: Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.Still don't know what it means. LOL Except that Bran dreams of spears of ice and Jon spears of fire.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 30, 2016 0:42:26 GMT
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Post by min on Nov 30, 2016 1:59:34 GMT
I agree, the Zeus/Thor personnae fits Robert the Storm Lord.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 5:01:31 GMT
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," - Could it possibly refer to a certain Son of a Southern House in Westeros whose sigil is a Sun and Spears? A son that makes a journey from Westeros to Essos? Welcome to the forum! Enjoy!
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Post by min on Nov 30, 2016 9:01:28 GMT
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," - Could it possibly refer to a certain Son of a Southern House in Westeros whose sigil is a Sun and Spears? A son that makes a journey from Westeros to Essos? Hello! You are referring to Quaithe's riddle when she makes one of her glass candle visits to Dany? The 'son's sun' being Quentyn Martell. Since Quentyn doesn't actually pose any threat to Dany and dies a rather gruesome death; it appears that he was never any kind of threat to Dany. So the question becomes whether or not Quentyn is the person she is actually talking about and if our first assumptions about the identities in the riddle are who we think they are at first blush. Quentyn doesn't seem to be a person of consequence while Tyrion has 'risen' in the West as Hand of the King for a short while and specifically passes through the Sunrise Gate and the Bridge of Dreams another kind of gate. Gates represent something significant as in the Black Gate. Tyrion is someone of consequence, also identified with the Drunken God. Gold, the Lannister ethos is shown with Jaime as the golden man in Bran's dreams. Gold is associated with the sun; so the sun's son could well be Tyrion whom we know is on his way to Dany. Why Quaithe thinks he can't be trusted alludes me. Perhaps it is Quaithe who can't be trusted to a certain degree; something Dany wonders to herself as well. If the Mummer's Dragon is Aegon; we know that Tyrion has been able to manipulate him to a certain extent causing Aegon to take an action contrary to Jon Connington's plan. IF Tyrion ends up as on of his chief advisors; this could present a problem for Dany.
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