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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 0:21:54 GMT
Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 0:21:54 GMT
George doesn't agree... SSM from Conestoga, July 2005: 6) When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately? It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned. GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen had to join the NW. (Also, I didn't mean to imply that Benjen "had to " join the NW. We don't know because GRRM wouldn't elaborate on the reasons for Benjen joining the NW.) Interesting. I didn't know about that SSM. So I'll give the same explanation for Benjen that I gave for Ned upthread. LOL
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 14, 2016 0:24:36 GMT
At what point did the Giant kick in? Through Old Nan or through a generation after Old Nan? How does that even happen? Is that for real, though, or just an exaggeration/turn of phrase? The Mountain is actually bigger than Hodor, but I don't recall people commenting that he's got giant blood.
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 0:41:51 GMT
Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 14, 2016 0:41:51 GMT
At what point did the Giant kick in? Through Old Nan or through a generation after Old Nan? How does that even happen? Is that for real, though, or just an exaggeration/turn of phrase? The Mountain is actually bigger than Hodor, but I don't recall people commenting that he's got giant blood. Man. And the Hound. I can't confirm neither were compared to Giants, ever. Or how about Dunc/Brienne? I think Dunc was called Ser Giant? If Giants didn't exist, this could be dismissed as a turn of phrase, but... giants exist. We've already brought up "squib" Ned acting like a muggle, how about the love story of Hagrid's parents?
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 14, 2016 0:57:24 GMT
I do like the idea that Hodor was always in Winterfell Begs the question... who/where are his parents? Is it his mother or father who is the grandchild of old Nan? At what point did the Giant kick in? Through Old Nan or through a generation after Old Nan? How does that even happen? Could He have Stark Blood? Does he have Frey blood (why Walder, GRRM?)? And, why is Hodor so terrified of thunderstorms? Thinking out loud... Is Hodor the last Reyne? Because if BR's Cave and the Winterfell Crypts are connected, and we pretty much know they are because of the story of Gendel and Gorne, why wouldn't they connect further South? Even as far south as Castamere? So the Giants could have had as much access to any Winterfell Crypt entrance than the children. Maybe Hodor's Giant connection is a key somehow, I dunno. I dug this up... with Mag and Wun Wun dead, is Hodor the last? Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth. The last of the great mountain giants, who ruled all the world at my birth. Oh the smallfolk have stolen my forests, they’ve stolen my rivers and hills. And the’ve built a great wall through my valleys, and fished all the fish from my rills. In stone halls they burn their great fires, in stone halls they forge their sharp spears. Whilst I walk alone in the mountains, with no true companion but tears. They hunt me with dogs in the daylight, they hunt me with torches by night. For these men who are small can never stand tall, whilst giants still walk in the light. Oooooooh, I am the LAST of the giants, so learn well the words of my song. For when I am gone the singing will fade, and the silence shall last long and long. Good questions on the parentage. With three generations after Old Nan there is plenty of room for his own bloodline. He could have some Stark blood for all we know, although his physical description doesn't line up with the Stark look. Can't take too much from the timeline there, but her sons died about fifteen years previously and her grandson less than that. How old were these descendants of hers? That her daughters had all married, left Winterfell, and died opens up Hodor's birth to many possibilities. One would think that the daughters stayed in the North nearer their home. In a nutshell, Hodor could be of Umber blood.?. Or Hodor (old tongue as proposed earlier in the thread) blood.
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 2:32:11 GMT
via mobile
Post by Melifeather on Aug 14, 2016 2:32:11 GMT
With a name like Walder are we supposed to conclude he's part Frey?
And was SerDuncan the Tall a bastard from Flea Bottom?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 14, 2016 2:41:35 GMT
In a nutshell, Hodor could be of Umber blood.? Now there's a thought. My mind immediately went to Mors Crowfood - " I know a story about a crow." Old Nan tells the tale of Mors' nickname, about how he was passed out drunk on the side of the road when a CROW came up to him thinking he was dead and then pecking out his eye. Interesting that Old Nan would know that story. Now, Mors is not quite as old as Old Nan, but he might be a couple of generations below her, perhaps being her great-nephew or some such. The Umbers are also the house continually plagued by wildling raids, which makes me wonder if Old Nan may have been a casualty of one of those raids - as in, either part of a raiding party that was captured and brought into service much like Osha, or caught trying to cross the Wall and becoming an Umber salt wife, if you will. Somewhere I had worked out a timeline of Old Nan and Hodor - I'll have to find it. I believe it worked out as Hodor being of age with NedCo and Old Nan being slightly younger than Maester Aemon.
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 12:24:56 GMT
Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 12:24:56 GMT
This is good for a laugh... the most convincing theory about Hodor and how it explains everything! www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Game-Thrones-Hodor-Theory-41191051Is there anywhere in the books where it says that he actually goes into the Crypts one day and comes out saying Hodor? We have the HBO version of Hold the Door; something that happens in the yard. Didn't some reader come up with the idea that Hodor meant hold the door? What if it means something else? Like H'odor with the emphasis on on the Odor or Othor or Other? Does something smell fishy? The smell of the cold and the dead for which the direwolves are particularly sensitive. Maybe Walder did come back from the war with a crack on his head and a keener sense of smell. Maybe GRRM didn't tell D&D anything other than what was already out there.
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 12:45:56 GMT
Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 14, 2016 12:45:56 GMT
This is good for a laugh... the most convincing theory about Hodor and how it explains everything! LOL! Everything is proof of RLJ lol
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 14, 2016 13:11:25 GMT
With a name like Walder are we supposed to conclude he's part Frey? And was SerDuncan the Tall a bastard from Flea Bottom? Yeah. It would be funny if Hodor has a good mix of wildling, northern, and Riverland bloods. In the show they give him the name Wylis, which is a Manderly name, or Willas, which is a Tyrell name. But they also have him holding a door that doesn't exist in book world. I like the idea of Old Nan as a wildling in a situation similar to Osha's, SPND. That can tie into the Bael story too, with Wildling blood mixed into the Stark bloodline.
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 13:16:16 GMT
min likes this
Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 14, 2016 13:16:16 GMT
Has anyone mentioned Hodr? Brother to, and slayer of, Baldr. Baldr, Walder. ? I know that "hold the door" is supposed to be behind the name, in story, but what about the author's choice of the name and sobriquet?
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 13:47:53 GMT
Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 13:47:53 GMT
Has anyone mentioned Hodr? Brother to, and slayer of, Baldr. Baldr, Walder. ? I know that "hold the door" is supposed to be behind the name, in story, but what about the author's choice of the name and sobriquet? What's the story that goes with it?
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 14, 2016 13:57:33 GMT
Has anyone mentioned Hodr? Brother to, and slayer of, Baldr. Baldr, Walder. ? I know that "hold the door" is supposed to be behind the name, in story, but what about the author's choice of the name and sobriquet? What's the story that goes with it? I don't know it well. Hodr and Baldr are brothers, and gods. Hodr is blind and Baldr is unkillable. Yet Loki tricks Hodr into slaying Baldr. Then Hodr is murdered for the slaying of his bro. Not much to go on, but the names, Hodr and Baldr, tweak my interest. Baldr = Walder? Walder Frey? Of course Frey(r) is a seperate entity from the Norse mythologies.
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Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 14:14:11 GMT
Here's some version of the story. norse-mythology.org/hodr/From the above link: These two stories are similar enough that they must point back to the same basic tale. Yet they also differ in several definitive respects, not the least of which is Hodr’s character. Imagine for a moment that Snorri’s version of the tale was the only one that had survived down to the present day. This is, in fact, the case for many of the stories that Snorri relates. His version of Baldr’s death is clearly far from the full picture, and his account cannot be taken at face value. Of course, the same must be said for Saxo’s version. Saxo and Snorri had overlapping but divergent aims, and whatever their own additions to the tale might have been – and whatever the motives behind their additions might have been – they could have been drawing from different versions of the tale in the first place. Regardless of the reasons behind the two narratives’ differences, however, it’s clear that we have two versions as different in spirit as they are in the details, and that neither of them give anything like the whole picture. This example should serve to caution us against taking the primary sources too literally, as if they were untarnished accounts of how the heathen northern Europeans saw the world. They point back to the ancient northern European worldview, yes, but that worldview is often visible only opaquely, and hidden beneath layers of later accretions. The sources are the starting points for our knowledge of the pre-Christian Germanic world, but they are not the ending points. A “stick to the sources” approach will only lead us astray and allow us to be bamboozled by Snorri and the like, just as Snorri’s overly-trusting Hodr was by Loki. To fill in the gaps, to restore much of what has been lost, we need an approach that is at the same time more critical and more intuitive. We must identify elements that are common to multiple sources, fit them together to form a more comprehensive framework, and add uncorroborated details only cautiously and tentatively.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 14, 2016 14:35:18 GMT
For my Marvel stuff I am still trying to figure out who Baldr's counterpart is. Bald(e)r plays heavily into some arcs that I associate with Robert's Rebellion and later during Ragnarok (which is forthcoming in ASOIAF), and I consider him to be a "Rosetta Stone" character....if I can crack his identity, everything else will fall into place, including Hod(o)r.
I'll have to go lay out Balder's bio in the Marvel forum and have you guys take a look.
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 14:57:31 GMT
Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 14, 2016 14:57:31 GMT
What if it means something else? Like H'odor with the emphasis on on the Odor or Othor or Other? Does something smell fishy? The smell of the cold and the dead for which the direwolves are particularly sensitive. Maybe Walder did come back from the war with a crack on his head and a keener sense of smell. Maybe GRRM didn't tell D&D anything other than what was already out there. As you noted some fans figured out that Hodor was a shortening of Hold the Door. I don't think it has a thing to do with odor, but it would be hilarious if it did. Here's an old blog post by a writer that attended a Con with Martin about 3 years ago. Ventrella gets a bit more info, but not a solid confirmation his guess is correct. I think we can now credit it him with getting it right.
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