|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 7, 2016 1:14:53 GMT
So I wonder if Ran was just filling in blanks and GRRM was just trusting him to make it all fit properly. But if that's what Ran thinks... then it's a total mystery to me how the World book can be written the way it is Unless he didn't write that part of the World book at all. IIRC, I don't think Ran DID write that part of the WB...I think George himself wrote the entire Targaryen section, including the Rebellion. I could be misremembering that however. What really trips me up and messes with my mind is the timing of this bit of information. ADWD's release in 2011 introduced us to two new characters relevant to the Rebellion: the Fisherman's Daughter and Aegon VI Targaryen. The FD gives an account of Ned's goings-on at the beginning of the war and supplies an alternate theory for Jon's parentage; the Aegon plot and the Pisswater Prince story gives us the mechanism of the baby swap. These elements lead to rampant speculation about babydaddies and Blackfyres and, of course, timelines. Three years later we get the World Book, and a few nuggets of information about the Rebellion that narrow down some of the nebulous timeline issues - specific years, specific seasons, etc. So now we have canon information that seemingly contradicts some of the "known" in-universe assumptions, followed by a semi-canon publication that provides just enough timeline detail to further contradict that "known". Furthermore, if you pay attention to the semi-canon detail, you can see that it actually ties into the inconsistencies created by the recent canon. How could Aegon have been only a year-ish old at the time of the Sack if he was born in 281? Perhaps we should take a closer look at that Pisswater Prince story. What is the significance of Godric Borrell telling Davos some yarn about Ned knocking up some random girl at the start of the war? Well, given that this romantic encounter lines up nicely with some other later events, perhaps this random girl isn't quite so random. Basically, I'm not so sure that the WB details are so much an overreach of creative license as they are a hint to readers to further question the "known". We were already instructed to do that with the most part with the introductions to the canon; I think the weirdo dates are subtly telling us to look harder. ETA: I also wouldn't be a bit surprised if Ran himself doesn't realize this ^^ either. I remember saying this o the curious thread.I wouldn't be suprise if somebody's baby got stolen. Uh huh!
|
|
|
Post by Maester Flagons on Sept 7, 2016 3:41:05 GMT
Does the Kingswood Brothers falling upon Elia & company jive with harsh winter conditions? Possible, I guess, yet travelling during spring like weather makes more sense. More likely scenario for the Aegon, Elia, and the false spring timeline Snafu - how about only two turns after the Tourney did winter return. Not two months total springlike weather then winter weather. For a planet where seasons go on for years a couple of months of warmer weather shouldn't scream a new season. A long warming period then a sudden reverse of weather conditions seems a more accurate description than the World Book version of 2 months total springtime. Gives plenty of time for all the travel issues, and a longer Spring would be all the better for making Rebellion babies.
|
|
|
Post by jnr on Sept 7, 2016 4:29:22 GMT
Basically, I'm not so sure that the WB details are so much an overreach of creative license as they are a hint to readers to further question the "known". We were already instructed to do that with the most part with the introductions to the canon; I think the weirdo dates are subtly telling us to look harder. Maybe, and I would say the odds are higher of this if it's true GRRM wrote that part of the World book than if he didn't. He is remarkably uncomfortable with providing firm dates in the canon -- for instance, do a search for "281" or "282" or "283" in the first three books and you get nothing. How about "300" or "299" or "298?" Zero references. A huge fraction of the truly insane amount of time calculation that has been done for this series stems ultimately from this: So I would see the specific dates thrown around so casually in the World book as a notable departure from GRRM's standard behavior... and thus, suggestive. how about only two turns after the Tourney did winter return. Not two months total springlike weather then winter weather. For a planet where seasons go on for years a couple of months of warmer weather shouldn't scream a new season. Yep, the maesters seem conservative about declaring a new season. And, of course, if the winter weather came back more gradually, so that Harrenhal was in the middle of the year (or even earlier), it would allow Elia to attend the tourney without being anywhere giving birth. Seems plausible to me.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 7, 2016 13:23:02 GMT
I think I'll create a second timeline that places the ToHH toward midyear, work in the known events, and see what falls out. I still think there are going to be some head-scratcher items and contradictions, because, honestly...I think George is being serious when he says he isn't operating under timeline constraints.
|
|
|
Post by jnr on Sept 7, 2016 14:39:10 GMT
Well, he says we should put away our stopwatches, but in general terms I think he knew what he was doing. If he said Aegon was about one -- give or take a turn or two -- at the time of the Sack, my guess is he was right. The fact that he bothers with the qualifier about giving or taking turns tells me he was very conscious of the need for some imprecision. He was thinking about this carefully. (I constantly say things like "IMO" when talking about Jon's parents for the same reason -- I don't want to sound like RLJers who are absurdly dead certain.)
However, even if we throw out the World book entirely, we still have some curiosities with this issue.
For instance, Dany's vision of Rhaegar and Elia with "newborn" Aegon would probably have to take place on Dragonstone after Rhaegar fell upon and abducted Lyanna... isn't that interesting?
|
|
|
Post by min on Sept 7, 2016 15:09:55 GMT
I can't add anything, but I am reading with interest. Timelines always confuse me. Does this suggest that fAegon is a a baby switch? The son of Elia a changeling.
Also did Rhaegar and Arthur split up at some point around their sojourn to Harrenhall? I think I read that they parted company at some point. If so, is it possible that Arthur came across Lyanna. Because if he did, then this might go aways to explain Ned's reverence for him. In the manner of a true knight as Brienne will tell you; duty bound to protect the weak and defenseless. If Lyanna was attacked by Twyin's minions; the three dishonored knights of the Tourney; I can see Arthur rushing her off to the Saltpans for medical assistance, possibly even a childbirth. Since we have Dany going through a similar experience.
I still have to go with Robert as father. Even if Lyanna was preggers before the tourney; then sent off with Maester Walys perhaps with Benjen's knowledge. Who knows what kind of Pink Letter Maester Walys recieved to hoodwink poor Benjen. So could we have Lyanna on the way to Castle Wyl for hiding? Along comes Arthur to intervene in the kidnapping attempt (by Tywin) and take her to Castle Wyl himself perhaps with a pledge to protect Jon and Lyanna in some way. That could explain a lot concerning Ned's shame and reverence for Arthur and why he associates Arthur's death with Lyanna. It might even explain why there is confusion about Lyanna's identity as Wylla. She may have been travelling with Maester Walys as Wylla and maintained that identity. If true, then it's likely that Ashara knew where to find Lyanna and Jon.
As for Robert, Ned describes him in his youth as every maiden's fantasy; tall, handsome and muscled all over. It wouldn't be hard for me to imagine Lyanna responding to that kind of masculinity; teenage hormones and all. It seems they were betrothed for some time. It's not out of the question they had contact before the tourney or that Robert would have such a strong pair bond with her after intimate relations.
It's a question of timing a childbirth around Rhaegar's and Arthur's trip to Harrenhal or sometime thereafter. Lyanna's disappearance may have occurred after her brother and father ended up in KL. Since Ned is with her when she dies; I think this happens after the ToJ and Starfall. Once again Ned telling Robert in the crypts that he would rather entrust a child to a pit viper (House Wyl) than Tywin Lannister when they discuss the pledge to protect a ward, in this case Robyn Arryn.
I'm not sure that Rhaegar was ever involved in Lyanna's disappearance or knew where she was located. Arthur may have taken a pledge to protect as seriously as Jon Arryn.
|
|
|
Post by wolfmaid7 on Sept 7, 2016 15:21:44 GMT
However, even if we throw out the World book entirely, we still have some curiosities with this issue. For instance, Dany's vision of Rhaegar and Elia with "newborn" Aegon would probably have to take place on Dragonstone after Rhaegar fell upon and abducted Lyanna... isn't that interesting? Now that is interesting.What has always struck me about this these: 1.Elia'seeming to be fine when Rhaenys almost killed her.She was bedridden for almost 6mths and more or less this woman seems very much healthy. 2.That Rhaegar would leave the kid he believed was TPTWP so soon to go anywhere and unguarded enough so that 3.How the frack did Elia and her kids get to Kinglanding anyway in time for them to be a part of all that ws going on? Without even trying to narrow time,we seem to not have enough of it. I don't even know if it was Dragonstone,i asked Jstar and Rhaenys_Targ this on Westeros when Weasel pie brought up the whole wiki debate; where the info came from etc.There was a controversy about where the text said Aegon was born ,i couldn't find it and it was changed on the wiki remember that?Was he born on DS and his mom arragned Tardis transportation because the next thing we know they were in KL getting killed. It all seems strange.Could they have been in fact,if they weren't on DS as i suspect traveling with Rhaegar?
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 7, 2016 15:58:12 GMT
More likely scenario for the Aegon, Elia, and the false spring timeline Snafu - how about only two turns after the Tourney did winter return. Not two months total springlike weather then winter weather. For a planet where seasons go on for years a couple of months of warmer weather shouldn't scream a new season. A long warming period then a sudden reverse of weather conditions seems a more accurate description than the World Book version of 2 months total springtime. Gives plenty of time for all the travel issues, and a longer Spring would be all the better for making Rebellion babies. I don't have and haven't read the WB, but since the tourney took place in the Year of the False Spring, I would imagine that the warming trend would have to be longer than 2 months. IIRC from canon, the household maesters from all over the kingdom keep track of their own meteorological and astrological information, and calculate how far along in the year they are. Some will also compare it to where celestial bodies are within the bigger time frames, then send that back to the Citadel where the maesters there collate all that info, compare it to their own findings and then declare the change in season. This is no short process, meaning a season can be in full swing before a white raven goes out. Does anyone remember or have the SSM where Martin says how long a year lasts on Planetos? I seem to remember one from long ago saying that the year cycle is just like it is on earth, with Martin giving specifics, a la 7 days to the week, 12 months to the year, etc.
|
|
|
Post by ac on Sept 7, 2016 16:00:38 GMT
It all seems strange.Could they have been in fact,if they weren't on DS as i suspect traveling with Rhaegar? I'm jumping into this late, so hope I haven't got the wrong end of the stick but I think this is where GRRM's statement that Ashara's feet weren't nailed to the ground (or something similar) is actually a more general clue. A year or more passes between Lyanna's kidnapping and The Sack - people move. For instance with Rhaegar it is assumed he never returns to King's Landing from heading out on his walk with his "companions" around the time of the False Spring until just before the Battle of the Trident. But as you point out that makes no sense. His son / TPTWP candidate has been just been born and the realm is in the midst of a huge civil war! As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong) we only have 4 pieces of info re Rhaegar's location: - He wasn't in KL to see the pyromancer's flames following the False Spring (World Book)
- He wasn't in KL when Brandon and his crew arrived. (And I'm not sure, but IIRC this is only a recollection of what Aerys said to Brandon rather than a recollection that he wasn't actually there)
- He couldn't be found pre-Battle of the Bells so Jon Connington was made HotK
- He came from "the South" to KL to lead the army at the Trident
Especially between point 2 and 3 above a huge amount of time passes. I find it hard to believe he was just chilling with Lyanna at the ToJ all of this time.
|
|
|
Post by ac on Sept 7, 2016 16:07:31 GMT
I don't have and haven't read the WB, but since the tourney took place in the Year of the False Spring, I would imagine that the warming trend would have to be longer than 2 months. IIRC from canon, the household maesters from all over the kingdom keep track of their own meteorological and astrological information, and calculate how far along in the year they are. Some will also compare it to where celestial bodies are within the bigger time frames, then send that back to the Citadel where the maesters there collate all that info, compare it to their own findings and then declare the change in season. This is no short process, meaning a season can be in full swing before a white raven goes out. Even though I think the maesters would be a lot quicker to declare spring than winter due to the effects on the moral of the realm you would expect at least a month or two of improved weather would be needed before the official declaration of spring. Does anyone remember or have the SSM where Martin says how long a year lasts on Planetos? I seem to remember one from long ago saying that the year cycle is just like it is on earth, with Martin giving specifics, a la 7 days to the week, 12 months to the year, etc. That's right. Calendar time is like Earth. Seasons are not aligned with the calendar due to magic.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 7, 2016 16:50:06 GMT
Even though I think the maesters would be a lot quicker to declare spring than winter due to the effects on the moral of the realm you would expect at least a month or two of improved weather would be needed before the official declaration of spring. I would agree with that. But any way you look at it, we're talking more than 2 moon's turns for all that happened in that time span. Say the ravens flew within the first month, about a fortnight into the spring, Whent still has to pull together a tourney, all the folks have to arrive and still the conditions didn't turn until the closing of the year. How could all that happen in 2 months time when it took Robert the better part of a month to go from KL to WF in Thrones? That's right. Calendar time is like Earth. Seasons are not aligned with the calendar due to magic. That's what I remember too, but I was after the specific number of moons in a year's turn. Do they have 12 or 13? If they have 12 then their year is slightly shorter than ours and could account for the timeline wonky-ness.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on Sept 7, 2016 17:01:40 GMT
As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong) we only have 4 pieces of info re Rhaegar's location: I believe there are only 3 PoVs that give us any information about Rhaegar's whereabouts Jaime is the main one, then JonCon in his recollections and Barristan in his. All of them say the same thing, knowledge of Rhaegar's whereabouts was scarce on the ground. No one knows what he was doing or where. It's Jaime's recollection that Rhaegar returned from the south, I believe, and he'd be as in the dark about it as Aerys was, seeing as he was stuck in KL with the mad king. Mind you the south is a rather large place. The Kingswood is south of KL. Just saying.
|
|
|
Post by jnr on Sept 7, 2016 17:32:49 GMT
How the frack did Elia and her kids get to Kinglanding anyway in time for them to be a part of all that ws going on? It appears that midway into the war, Aerys had Elia and her children summoned to King's Landing so he could manipulate Dorne. From ASOS, we have: I don't even know if it was Dragonstone,i asked Jstar and Rhaenys_Targ this on Westeros when Weasel pie brought up the whole wiki debate; where the info came from etc.There was a controversy about where the text said Aegon was born My recollection is that in the same mythical, unlinked SSM in which GRRM said Dany's vision was indeed of Aegon/Elia/Rhaegar, their location was also said to be Dragonstone. Since this SSM remains mythical and unlinked, we can't be sure. Does anyone remember or have the SSM where Martin says how long a year lasts on Planetos? Your memory's correct. It's just a standard year, like ours, based on twelve months.
|
|
|
Post by jnr on Sept 7, 2016 17:35:00 GMT
I find it hard to believe he was just chilling with Lyanna at the ToJ all of this time. I think you're very wise to doubt. The truth of the matter is that we cannot confidently place Rhaegar at the ToJ even for a single day.
|
|
|
Post by jnr on Sept 7, 2016 17:38:01 GMT
It appears that midway into the war, Aerys had Elia and her children summoned to King's Landing so he could manipulate Dorne. From ASOS, we have: The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad.This, btw, gives us excellent insight into Aerys' state of mind and approach to solving military/diplomatic problems, and makes it extremely hard to believe that (per the fapp), • Aerys knew Lyanna was at the ToJ because he sent Hightower there, to bring back Rhaegar • Aerys knew Rhaegar had lost at the Trident • Aerys did not, at any time, try to retrieve Lyanna to use her as a hostage to manipulate the North and Robert, both of whom Aerys knew to be intensely invested in Lyanna's welfare
|
|