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Post by min on Aug 1, 2016 12:31:57 GMT
I'm making a new thread here specifically for testing the proof I presented at Westeros. While I think of HoB&W as the think tank where ideas are developed; I think of Heresy as the place where the proof is tested. I think that's a necessary requirement if we are claiming that something is canon. And in this case, I expect rigorous testing. People will poke holes to see if it holds water no matter how elegant we might think it is. LOL Here's the sticking point: Given the ambiguities in all of this I'm still reluctant to go with the time-travelling business.
When Bran tells Jon that he likes it in the dark, he isn't speaking from the Heart of Darkness but from the darkness of the Winterfell crypt. We are very explicitly told that his third eye opened in that darkness so we're not talking about memories from the future or anything to do with the weirwood but about a personal link with his brother through his direwolf. BC isn't entirely closed to the idea but needs more proof or more persuasion because of the ambiguities involved. His argument has to be addressed. His concern at the time-travelling business, if I understand correctly, is that Bran will be all over the place like Dr. Who. I don't think this is the case, rather there may be a few incidents, well disguised, relating specifically to the Starks in the story. (And possibly Tyrion ). The argument has to be focused. So to BC's point: - Where does Bran say that he's not afraid of the dark anymore in the Crypts. They can't see you, but you can see them? Is he referring to Summer seeing Theon's gang while in the crypts? Was it established that Bran's third eye was opened in the crypts? - So the other comment is that connecting with Jon to open his third eye is mundane and something he could probably do as an untrained greenseer. Is Bran a greenseer when his third eye is opened or when he is wed to the tree? Does the warg bond explain this appearance to Jon or is it a requirement for affecting events in the past. It's important to argue that point. - Has anyone talked to jnr lately? We need someone to provide the opposing argument. I'll invite one or two people from Westeros.
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tucu
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Post by tucu on Aug 1, 2016 15:05:37 GMT
Min, thanks for the invite. I will rehash and extend some of my points from the Heresy thread. I am partial to the idea of time manipulation elements in the books ( I even think that the great wolf in Mirri's tent is future Bran); however there is a lot of ambiguity and alternative explanations for Jon's dream about Bran being a tree.
A few points against the time manipulation argument: - Bran's third eye was opened in GoT, so even if his greenseer's powers were not fully awaken/controlled in ACoK, he was still a greenseer.
- Skinchanging skills seem to be latent and activate on its own while untrained skinchangers are sleeping. The same might be possible for greenseers; the weirwood paste and throne might just allow better control of the powers. BR exhibited some greenseer powers long before he dissapeared to join the trees.
- Bran was in the Winterfell crypts at the time. This would explain the darkness and the smell of death in Jon's dream. And Bran was never afraid of the crypts; from ACoK Bran VII: "He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too."
-The vision of the wildling army was from Ghost POV standing on a cliff or mountain and only requires a connection between Jon, Ghost, Bran and Summer. We know from other chapters that Ghost can sense what his siblings are doing (for example the vision of Shaggydog killing the unicorn)
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Post by min on Aug 1, 2016 15:14:59 GMT
Hello tucu!
Thank you for joining us. I'm so pleased. You make some excellent points. I'm about to re-read these chapters and see if I can refute your arguments in a persuasive manner. In the meantime, feel free to poke around and introduce yourself at A Man Needs a Name.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 1, 2016 16:09:13 GMT
Welcome tucu!
I'm Feather Crystal on Heresy and Melifeather here...
Anyways...yes Bran's blood makes him a greenseer, but opening the third eye is a necessary part of being a warg/skinchanger, so opening his third eye in the crypts didn't make him a greenseer. When he's in the crypts he says he doesn't like the dark.
Bran came out of a skinchanging event in the crypts saying he had talked to Jon. Where is this conversation? The only one is the account in the Jon POV where Ghost/Jon sees Bran as a weirwood sapling, which grows before his eyes, limbs thickening. Furthermore he tells Jon that he likes the dark.
Varamyr's disembodied spirit passed through trees. He had no control over his spirit. Some readers like to say he was expelled, but the text doesn't state that...just that he passed through. He couldn't stay, because he wasn't wedded to the trees, so this is evidence that you need to eat the weirwood paste to make a connection to the trees and be able to slip into them.
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tucu
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Post by tucu on Aug 1, 2016 16:45:30 GMT
Thanks! By the time they were ready to exit the crypts (in Bran VII), Bran thinks: "Bran had told himself a hundred times how much he hated hiding down here in the dark, how much he wanted to see the sun again, to ride his horse through wind and rain. But now that the moment was upon him, he was afraid. He'd felt safe in the darkness; when you could not even find your own hand in front of your face, it was easy to believe that no enemies could ever find you either"
The bolded part is basically the same concept that tree-Bran used with Jon: he feels safe in the darkness as it hides him from his enemies. This is the quote when Bran thinks about this dream about Ghost and Jon (also from Bran VII): "Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that"
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 1, 2016 16:58:15 GMT
Thanks! By the time they were ready to exit the crypts (in Bran VII), Bran thinks: "Bran had told himself a hundred times how much he hated hiding down here in the dark, how much he wanted to see the sun again, to ride his horse through wind and rain. But now that the moment was upon him, he was afraid. He'd felt safe in the darkness; when you could not even find your own hand in front of your face, it was easy to believe that no enemies could ever find you either" The bolded part is basically the same concept that tree-Bran used with Jon. This is the quote when Bran thinks about this dream about Ghost and Jon (also from Bran VII): "Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that" He didn't realize that the darkness made him feel safe until the "moment" to leave was upon him. He didn't go to sleep afterward in the crypt just to tell Jon that he liked it down there! Where is this conversation that took place while Bran was still in the crypts? He says he touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Bran couldn't have been wedded to the weirwoods yet in order to appear to Jon as a weirwood-wolf face.
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Post by min on Aug 1, 2016 17:15:08 GMT
He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that" Oh thank you tucu! I was searching for this in the chapter you mentioned last night and do you think I could find it? LOL!I can see why BC says it's too ambiguous. His recollection takes place in crypt and also says once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon but might of dreamed it. It does seem to connect Bran to the tree dream except that there are no dream images to confirm that Bran saw him at the Skirling Pass or that this wasn't an earlier dream. There is also the possibility that he can't recall the dream as most people don't. Last night I dreamt of books flying around my head flapping their pages. Its odd that Martin would place the details of the dream later on in the book with Jon. That's bound to pass by the reader's notice. It's almost like a buried detail with Bran along with the reverse order in which Bran recalls it. The flag for me was Bran appearing as a weirwood tree, sprouting in front of Jon. Because so far all the dream imagery is direwolf to direwolf. We associate the weirwoods with greenseers really only when Bran meets Bloodraven. So again placing tree Bran this way so early in the story making it so difficult to determine the chronology between characters makes me wonder about the event itself. Tucu, when you first read the TreeBran passage at the Skirling Pass; did you make the connection to Bran in the Crypts then?
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tucu
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Post by tucu on Aug 1, 2016 17:26:22 GMT
He didn't realize that the darkness made him feel safe until the "moment" to leave was upon him. He didn't go to sleep afterward in the crypt just to tell Jon that he liked it down there! Where is this conversation that took place while Bran was still in the crypts? He says he touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Bran couldn't have been wedded to the weirwoods yet in order to appear to Jon as a weirwood-wolf face. This is why I think this could be explained by Bran subconsciousness being responsible for the lack of fear and for Jon's dream. Like Arya dreaming about Nymeria using her latent warg powers, Bran could have contacted Ghost and Jon in a dream using his latent greenseer powers. There is no conversation about this dream on Bran's side, just a brief recollection of a dream where he touched Ghost and talked to Jon.
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tucu
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Post by tucu on Aug 1, 2016 17:35:22 GMT
Oh thank you tucu! I was searching for this in the chapter you mentioned last night and do you think I could find it? LOL!I can see why BC says it's too ambiguous. His recollection takes place in crypt and also says once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon but might of dreamed it. It does seem to connect Bran to the tree dream except that there are no dream images to confirm that Bran saw him at the Skirling Pass or that this wasn't an earlier dream. There is also the possibility that he can't recall the dream as most people don't. Last night I dreamt of books flying around my head flapping their pages. Its odd that Martin would place the details of the dream later on in the book with Jon. That's bound to pass by the reader's notice. It's almost like a buried detail with Bran along with the reverse order in which Bran recalls it. The flag for me was Bran appearing as a weirwood tree, sprouting in front of Jon. Because so far all the dream imagery is direwolf to direwolf. We associate the weirwoods with greenseers really only when Bran meets Bloodraven. So again placing tree Bran this way so early in the story making it so difficult to determine the chronology between characters makes me wonder about the event itself. Tucu, when you first read the TreeBran passage at the Skirling Pass; did you make the connection to Bran in the Crypts then? Jon VII is where the tree-Bran dream happens. Bran VII is where Bran remembers having talked to Jon. The chapter order is Jon VII->Bran VII. So the order is fine from the point of of the readers.
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Post by min on Aug 1, 2016 17:38:24 GMT
This is why I think this could be explained by Bran subconsciousness being responsible for the lack of fear and for Jon's dream. Like Arya dreaming about Nymeria using her latent warg powers, Bran could have contacted Ghost and Jon in a dream using his latent greenseer powers. There is no conversation about this dream on Bran's side, just a brief recollection of a dream where he touched Ghost and talked to Jon. If he was never afraid in the crypts; I'm not sure why he would tell Jon that he was not afraid anymore if he wasn't once afraid. I think I will have a look at the stuff in Bloodraven's cave. I tend to agree with the idea of latent greenseer talent or remembering only a fragment of a dream. - Bran was in the Winterfell crypts at the time. This would explain the darkness and the smell of death in Jon's dream. And Bran was never afraid of the crypts; from ACoK Bran VII: "He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too."
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Post by min on Aug 1, 2016 17:49:32 GMT
Geez, I missed that whole conversation at Westeros. LOL
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 1, 2016 18:13:58 GMT
-The vision of the wildling army was from Ghost POV standing on a cliff or mountain and only requires a connection between Jon, Ghost, Bran and Summer. We know from other chapters that Ghost can sense what his siblings are doing (for example the vision of Shaggydog killing the unicorn) Hello and Welcome Tucu! I'm Yield on westeros.org. You've got some great insights and I'm with you on a lot of what you've said in this past Heresy. I haven't been keeping up too well lately but everyone once in a while I feel the need to jump in The thing is that Summer is not in that communication at all. Bran appears to Ghost directly which we have never seen before or since. Jon just happens to be in Ghost at the time and that's a heavy coincidence. As I said on Heresy, there is no communications between Starks bar this one. And it's just too strange given the amount of time Arya, Bran, Jon and even Rickon used to spend in their wolves that not once did they notice each other.
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tucu
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Post by tucu on Aug 1, 2016 20:46:28 GMT
If he was never afraid in the crypts; I'm not sure why he would tell Jon that he was not afraid anymore if he wasn't once afraid. I think I will have a look at the stuff in Bloodraven's cave. I tend to agree with the idea of latent greenseer talent or remembering only a fragment of a dream. Tree-Bran doesn't tell Jon that he used to be afraid of the dark. He tells Ghost-Jon not to be afraid: "He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs. Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him. " I think GRRM intended for this parts to be very ambiguous. We don't get a description of the powers of an untrained greenseer, a free-range greenseer (a greenseer that joined the trees and then left the cave) or a full greenseer.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 1, 2016 20:59:34 GMT
tucu, there is no evidence that greenseers can slip into the trees without wedding them first.
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tucu
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Post by tucu on Aug 1, 2016 21:03:38 GMT
-The vision of the wildling army was from Ghost POV standing on a cliff or mountain and only requires a connection between Jon, Ghost, Bran and Summer. We know from other chapters that Ghost can sense what his siblings are doing (for example the vision of Shaggydog killing the unicorn) Hello and Welcome Tucu! I'm Yield on westeros.org. You've got some great insights and I'm with you on a lot of what you've said in this past Heresy. I haven't been keeping up too well lately but everyone once in a while I feel the need to jump in The thing is that Summer is not in that communication at all. Bran appears to Ghost directly which we have never seen before or since. Jon just happens to be in Ghost at the time and that's a heavy coincidence. As I said on Heresy, there is no communications between Starks bar this one. And it's just too strange given the amount of time Arya, Bran, Jon and even Rickon used to spend in their wolves that not once did they notice each other. This goes back to the unclear power of greenseers. Can the actions of a fully trained greenseer ripple into the past?, BR says no but he might not be a great greenseer. Or can an untrained greenseer's subconsciousness contact skinchangers in their dreams? We don't know, but this might be an example of that.
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