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Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 26, 2016 17:47:54 GMT
My two sense is the theory,while proponents chide those of us that say NoRLJ for not being astute enough to discern it-It being so subtle and all,we are chided for pointing out that it is not.You can't win with this.Besides being every Disney and Grimm fairytale this theory and it proponents aren't logical in their analysis. Fans have drawn conclusions about Jon's parentage from a rumour that at its foundation doesn't stand up to scrutiny.And look we should all expect not everything would be answered and somethings we would know,but this when you put it under a microscope doesn't hold water. From the emotional evidence,to depth to GRRM style....No If i believed that this tale was a Disney or GRIMM fairytale i would buy it,and did buy it. Prince kidnaps girl keeps her in a tower for a year,girl dies,brother comes back from area where sister dies with a baby he says is his bastard...Really? So,did GRRM lie? No he didn't,he crafted a story where the characters have their heads filled with fairytales themselves.Those stories a familar to us because we grew up on the dashing prince running off with a girl who was going to get maaried off by her father to a brute.Wham!!! RLJ. Lol...Srry for the typos i'm a bit lit up at the moment.Had abit too much wine....I think it was wine...I don't know what the frack that was to be honest.But you got my gist. This theory..Seriously now.The worse part is that GRRM has put some really sweet clues in there that we should be discussing,but will never get discussed because boomarang " He can't make it to subtle else it would frustrate the readers"(gunshot to the head emoji) Among the glearing problems with this theory is the timeline and another "Did GRRM lie?" AC. The whole "Jon was born 8-9mths before Dany" and all these people who are telling us this is mystery over and over including the author is really going to have this big secret figured out by subtracting 9mths from "Rhaella's" flight to Dragonstone and play magical hats between Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar? No he didn't lie Dany was born 9mths or so after Jon,but she wasn't born 9mths after that "hooded and cloaked" figure left KL.Why would GRRM put that descripton in there huh? Why not just have Jamie say "I saw the Queen getting into the royal carriage" and leave it at that. This clue just farted on peoples faces and they didn't smell it.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 26, 2016 17:55:31 GMT
You've pointed out something that should be obvious: Brandon demanded Rhaegar to come out and die, yet Ned doesn't have a bad thing to say about him. What does Ned know? Obviously something contrary to what Brandon believed. Even more suspect is Brandon demanding Rhaegar come out and die and not demand his sister returned to him and then challenge the Prince.GRRM's wording is a red flag as to what people know.He had Cat say that Brandon went off to KL after he " heard about Lyanna" not that he went off after he heard of Lyanna's abduction or the like.Just that he heard something about his sister.Granted it could have been because she was taken,but i think what he heard is that his sister was preggers and based on what happened at Harrenhall Brandon jumped the gun. This could have been handled differently,if Brandon Stark didn't overreact.Just go home find out what was what.
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Post by ac on Aug 26, 2016 18:01:17 GMT
No he didn't lie Dany was born 9mths or so after Jon,but she wasn't born 9mths after that "hooded and cloaked" figure left KL.Why would GRRM put that descripton in there huh? Why not just have Jamie say "I saw the Queen getting into the royal carriage" and leave it at that. This clue just farted on peoples faces and they didn't smell it. Haha. Any thoughts on who this was?
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Post by ac on Aug 26, 2016 18:07:04 GMT
You've pointed out something that should be obvious: Brandon demanded Rhaegar to come out and die, yet Ned doesn't have a bad thing to say about him. What does Ned know? Obviously something contrary to what Brandon believed. Even more suspect is Brandon demanding Rhaegar come out and die and not demand his sister returned to him and then challenge the Prince.GRRM's wording is a red flag as to what people know.He had Cat say that Brandon went off to KL after he " heard about Lyanna" not that he went off after he heard of Lyanna's abduction or the like.Just that he heard something about his sister.Granted it could have been because she was taken,but i think what he heard is that his sister was preggers and based on what happened at Harrenhall Brandon jumped the gun. This could have been handled differently,if Brandon Stark didn't overreact.Just go home find out what was what. How would you match this up with the timeline? In the sense that if she was already pregnant at this point then she likely gave birth at least 6 months before Ned finds her.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 26, 2016 18:29:21 GMT
Lol...Srry for the typos i'm a bit lit up at the moment.Had abit too much wine....I think it was wine...I don't know what the frack that was to be honest.But you got my gist. This theory..Seriously now.The worse part is that GRRM has put some really sweet clues in there that we should be discussing,but will never get discussed because boomarang " He can't make it to subtle else it would frustrate the readers"(gunshot to the head emoji) Among the glearing problems with this theory is the timeline and another "Did GRRM lie?" AC. The whole "Jon was born 8-9mths before Dany" and all these people who are telling us this is mystery over and over including the author is really going to have this big secret figured out by subtracting 9mths from "Rhaella's" flight to Dragonstone and play magical hats between Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar? No he didn't lie Dany was born 9mths or so after Jon,but she wasn't born 9mths after that "hooded and cloaked" figure left KL.Why would GRRM put that descripton in there huh? Why not just have Jamie say "I saw the Queen getting into the royal carriage" and leave it at that. This clue just farted on peoples faces and they didn't smell it. the applause was sincere, I understood perfectly And you're so right, because if RLJ were the solution, there are much more knowledgeable characters in the books that would also believe it. Not a single character has even let it cross their minds. Not any of the POV characters - not Ned nor Cat nor Cersei nor Jaime nor Tyrion etc - ever consider RLJ. Not even Robert apparently, and not even Tywin for all we know. And I love the notion of Jon and Dany being 8-9 months apart in age, but not necessarily as measured by the usual events like the Sack. Well stated. Also @wolfmaid, we're totally on the same page, because GRRM makes very measured decisions to include information or state something in a certain way. He isn't randomly throwing in Jaime's choice of words, or thinking that Brienne getting involved with making sure the Tarly wedding has the necessary eggs would be simply interesting to read about. He's spending years decided what to put on paper. And what NOT to put on paper.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 26, 2016 18:32:49 GMT
Even more suspect is Brandon demanding Rhaegar come out and die and not demand his sister returned to him and then challenge the Prince.GRRM's wording is a red flag as to what people know.He had Cat say that Brandon went off to KL after he " heard about Lyanna" not that he went off after he heard of Lyanna's abduction or the like.Just that he heard something about his sister.Granted it could have been because she was taken,but i think what he heard is that his sister was preggers and based on what happened at Harrenhall Brandon jumped the gun. This could have been handled differently,if Brandon Stark didn't overreact.Just go home find out what was what. Nods. I say this all the time. And Ned didn't approach the KG by asking about Lyanna either.
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Post by min on Aug 26, 2016 18:40:48 GMT
This theory..Seriously now.The worse part is that GRRM has put some really sweet clues in there that we should be discussing ,but will never get discussed Never discussed? Why not? If we should be discussing them; let's discuss them. Let's start with Brandon's mysterious errand. He went off somewhere and was given information (true or false) about Lyanna. This put Brandon directly into Mad Aerys hands; followed by Rickard. - who would benefit from handing over Brandon and Rickard to Aerys? - was the errand calculated to remove the Starks; to start a war? - because the next thing that happens is that Aerys demands that Robert and Ned are turned over to him? - if Rhaegar was falsely accused; who would benefit from pitting Rhaegar against the North? ETA: This quote from Elder Brother to Brienne VII in FfC: "When I died in the Battle of Trident I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one."
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 26, 2016 18:52:07 GMT
Haha. Any thoughts on who this was? My thoughts it was nobody,a decoy in the form of a maidservant.Intent,to give false info to make people believe the Queen was heading to DS.Plus there's no reason to go through that for to go the DS which is the very first place anyone would and did look anyway.You only do that for misdirection.Make them believe there on DS when really they are not. How would you match this up with the timeline? In the sense that if she was already pregnant at this point then she likely gave birth at least 6 months before Ned finds her. I've longed believe and taken to heart GRRM's suggestion to forget the timeline and just read the books.I get why he would say that.If the pieces are playing The Fox and Hound" then we would have to rethink the timeline that is slanted to favor an outcome. This is what RLJers use to determine the timeline. 1.Robb's conception in relation to Jon's birth which is ridiculous because you can't use an unknown to prove and unknown. 2.Cat's statement: "Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs. He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence." This canot be used to determine when Jon was concieved,Cat found out in their first year of marriage that Ned fathered a bastard he happened to meet on campaign.Assuming RR was the campaign Ned could have fathered Jon on his way to call his banners as in the case of the Fisherman's daughter.Its easier for everyone and more beneficial for Cat and Robb to have Jon be the second son even if he's not.Its a way to keep him in check at WF. Lastly,i brought it up before the whole Dany is 8-9mths younger than Jon and why that is just a no. So what is the timeline? I think it starts at Harrenhall where she concieved.By the time she "disapears" she was already preggers.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 26, 2016 19:08:57 GMT
who would benefit from handing over Brandon and Rickard to Aerys? Welp. Just had a thought. Ned benefits by becoming the Lord of Winterfell. But I'm not sure that Ned was meant to be the surviving Stark. If it weren't for Howland Reed... Which leaves Benjen, the Stark left in Winterfell. Or was he? We still don't know what made him join the NW. Did he abandon his post? Was he drawn into some sort of plot to make him Lord of Winterfell, but Ned survived? Thinking out loud. So what I'm thinking is that this was a long con, to get a particular person in charge of Winterfell in preparation for the Winter/Long Night v 2.0.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 26, 2016 19:10:46 GMT
And you're so right, because if RLJ were the solution, there are much more knowledgeable characters in the books that would also believe it. Not a single character has even let it cross their minds. Not any of the POV characters - not Ned nor Cat nor Cersei nor Jaime nor Tyrion etc - ever consider RLJ. Not even Robert apparently, and not even Tywin for all we know. And I love the notion of Jon and Dany being 8-9 months apart in age, but not necessarily as measured by the usual events like the Sack. Well stated. Also @wolfmaid, we're totally on the same page, because GRRM makes very measured decisions to include information or state something in a certain way. He isn't randomly throwing in Jaime's choice of words, or thinking that Brienne getting involved with making sure the Tarly wedding has the necessary eggs would be simply interesting to read about. He's spending years decided what to put on paper. And what NOT to put on paper. Yeah it is really funny that no one thinks that Jon isn't Ned's and i have a theory on that.It favors any theory to be honest that doesn't have Ned as daddy.This is never a question because to much other stuff is going on so no buddy ever wonders.Why would Ned,honerable Ned lie? They believe it because it humanizes Ned and shows that he aint all that perfect.Ned is a person in authority and if he says so,it is so. Jon looks so much like Ned so that creates a blindspot to that type of thing. But still i would think how is it this dude was raping or loving on this woman in a tower and she didn't get pregnant? Though to be honest i think Varys knows.That man has made it his buisness to know other people's buisness.Yep i think in typical Martin style he spake and people didn't pay attention to how he lay his words.Its a given that while Dany is 8-9mths younger than Jon,she was born 9mths after fRhaella fled KL.She was already sucking on Ashara's boobs somewhere.
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Post by min on Aug 26, 2016 19:17:13 GMT
So what I'm thinking is that this was a long con, to get a particular person in charge of Winterfell in preparation for the Winter/Long Night v 2.0. I'm thinking that Ned had to survive to produce the next generation if we're talking about Ice and Fire. In the Game of Thrones; the struggle for power; I'm thinking Tywin Lannister and Varys have something to do with starting the war. Tywin must have been PO'd when Jaime was inducted into the Kingsguard having lost his heir and golden boy. Cersei is passed over Rhaegar's wife; he doesn't arrange a marriage contract for Jaime with the Tully's; Lyanna is betrothed to Robert. That's slim picking for him. Lyanna's disappearance and a rumor that she was taken by Rhaegar and raped is just the ticket. Robert can no longer marry Lyanna and Rhaegar and Robert go to war. Where he sits on the sidelines waiting for the outcome. Isn't Tywin also treated horribly by Aerys although he is hand of the king. Tywin is not unlike Catelyn when Robert asks him to be Hand. She thinks about the family fortune and how Ned can't turn Rorbert down.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 26, 2016 19:20:11 GMT
Never discussed? Why not? If we should be discussing them; let's discuss them. Let's start with Brandon's mysterious errand. He went off somewhere and was given information (true or false) about Lyanna. This put Brandon directly into Mad Aerys hands; followed by Rickard. - who would benefit from handing over Brandon and Rickard to Aerys? - was the errand calculated to remove the Starks; to start a war? - because the next thing that happens is that Aerys demands that Robert and Ned are turned over to him? - if Rhaegar was falsely accused; who would benefit from pitting Rhaegar against the North? ETA: This quote from Elder Brother to Brienne VII in FfC: "When I died in the Battle of Trident I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one." I should rephrase that its more likely to get discussed here vs Westeros.org...Already for some reason the site has gone down and i told Snowfyre this and it has happened like clockwork everytime.Since this project started it has been one techinical problem after another which has put it off for months.People can't posts regarding it.Everything has been great for months.The Wrap up thread is up and problems.I told Snowy to observe this anytime i put up threads regarding this project watch Westeros.org have techical difficulties. Not to mention it is not a place to have any real discource about Jon's parentage if its other than RLJ.
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Post by min on Aug 26, 2016 19:24:51 GMT
Never discussed? Why not? If we should be discussing them; let's discuss them. Let's start with Brandon's mysterious errand. He went off somewhere and was given information (true or false) about Lyanna. This put Brandon directly into Mad Aerys hands; followed by Rickard. - who would benefit from handing over Brandon and Rickard to Aerys? - was the errand calculated to remove the Starks; to start a war? - because the next thing that happens is that Aerys demands that Robert and Ned are turned over to him? - if Rhaegar was falsely accused; who would benefit from pitting Rhaegar against the North? ETA: This quote from Elder Brother to Brienne VII in FfC: "When I died in the Battle of Trident I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one." I should rephrase that its more likely to get discussed here vs Westeros.org...Already for some reason the site has gone down and i told Snowfyre this and it has happened like clockwork everytime.Since this project started it has been one techinical problem after another which has put it off for months.People can't posts regarding it.Everything has been great for months.The Wrap up thread is up and problems.I told Snowy to observe this anytime i put up threads regarding this project watch Westeros.org have techical difficulties. Not to mention it is not a place to have any real discource about Jon's parentage if its other than RLJ. Well I thought the OP at Westeros was great! But how strange that the server goes down whenever this stuff is posted. Given the amount of press it gets; could it be that so many people still want answers; it can't handle the traffic. LOL
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 26, 2016 19:31:01 GMT
I'm thinking that Ned had to survive to produce the next generation if we're talking about Ice and Fire. In the Game of Thrones; the struggle for power; I'm thinking Tywin Lannister and Varys have something to do with starting the war. Tywin must have been PO'd when Jaime was inducted into the Kingsguard having lost his heir and golden boy. Cersei is passed over Rhaegar's wife; he doesn't arrange a marriage contract for Jaime with the Tully's; Lyanna is betrothed to Robert. That's slim picking for him. Lyanna's disappearance and a rumor that she was taken by Rhaegar and raped is just the ticket. Robert can no longer marry Lyanna and Rhaegar and Robert go to war. Where he sits on the sidelines waiting for the outcome. Nahhh,i don't see that of Ned.The Starks don't let shit go and they overreact at any percieved slight especially against their women.Just ask Baelish who almost got killed by Brandon for thinking he could fight for Cat.He just made a witty remark about Cat in a brothal and Ned would have torn him to bits if Cat didn't poke her head out the window. This was a series of unfortunate events that broke an already tense situation in the Kingdom with the mistakes of kids thrown in the mix.
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Post by ac on Aug 26, 2016 19:31:18 GMT
if Rhaegar was falsely accused; who would benefit from pitting Rhaegar against the North? My personal opinion is Aerys. Driving a wedge between Rhaegar and the Starks / Baratheons would help keep Rhaegar's ambitions in check. And he may not have considered it would start a war. As has been pointed out, Brandon's reaction was a bit OTT. Also, and of course this complete speculation, but if Lyanna's kidnappers were impersonating Rhaegar and his crew then Aerys is in about the best position there is to be able to pull that off (not suggesting he did the dead personally). My thoughts it was nobody,a decoy in the form of a maidservant.Intent,to give false info to make people believe the Queen was heading to DS.Plus there's no reason to go through that for to go the DS which is the very first place anyone would and did look anyway.You only do that for misdirection.Make them believe there on DS when really they are not. OK, so what would this misdirect add to the story. I mean it is common knowledge that Viserys and Dany escape, why would it matter whether from DS or somewhere else? So what is the timeline? I think it starts at Harrenhall where she concieved.By the time she "disapears" she was already preggers. I've toyed with this idea too but if Lyanna had already flowered wouldn't she have been married to Robert by then. By the time of Harrenhal he's been Lord of Storm's End for 3 years (give or take) and it would be time to get working on producing an heir.
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