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Post by ac on Aug 26, 2016 1:57:50 GMT
I'm trying to flesh out my Aerys is Jon's father theory (although I'm currently making GRRM's writing speed look rapid) and hoped you could weigh in on a small but potentially important point.
As I'm sure you all know, one thing at least a portion of the RLJ crowd think is that Rhaegar married Lyanna and therefore newborn Jon was legitimate and the new king - hence the 3 KGs guarding and fighting to the death for him at the Tower of Joy.
But in this SSM (http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm), of which another part about the Kingsguard is often cited as evidence for RLJ, GRRM explicitly states that "Jon is a bastard". I'm sure GRRM could have answered that question without specifically stating that if he'd wanted to and that makes me discount the "Rhaegar married Lyanna" hypothesis. So my question is does anyone have any examples of GRRM explicitly lying in these interviews?
Cheers.
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Post by jnr on Aug 26, 2016 3:19:36 GMT
This is an outstandingly good question, and here is my answer: No.
But he also enjoys playing his games, and he will sometimes say things that have a subtler or deeper meaning than the audience, or the reader, is likely to understand at the time.
In the case you point out, the context is: What he says of Dany is true. But it is not always true throughout the series, as we know, because ADWD is full of scenes in which she rules as a wealthy, powerful queen of Meereen. So it seems possible to me that he had a similar logic in mind for Jon, meaning Jon may discover he is not a bastard, and his character will gradually change in a future book in accordance with that discovery.
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Post by min on Aug 26, 2016 7:25:05 GMT
I don't think he's lying about anything. He's a bit of a magician using sleight of hand and you can't be sure what's up his sleeve or hidden in his pockets.
I can't get past the SSM saying that two people walked away from the ToJ and that Ned and Howland tore down the tower to build the cairns. If baby Jon was in the tower; why aren't there at least 3 people walking away? You have to twist yourself into a pretzel to make sense of it.
"As I'm sure you all know, one thing at least a portion of the RLJ crowd think is that Rhaegar married Lyanna and therefore newborn Jon was legitimate and the new king - hence the 3 KGs guarding and fighting to the death for him at the Tower of Joy."
The problem with the RLJ crowd is that they can only turn right when they should turn left. You have to fill in a lot of gaps to explain the Tower of Joy to get to RLJ. So long as you invent a story that leads to that conclusion and fit everything into that bias, you will be accepted by the group. Otherwise, you will be scorned and harangued by the ring leaders of that group; until you comply. It's easier for people to comply rather than think independently. Who wants to be rejected? This is the basis for what George Orwell called groupthink: "a pattern of thought characterized by self-deception, forced manufacture of consent, and conformity to group values and ethics."
Instead of maintaining a modicum of skepticism; the group is unable to reframe of re-examine their assumptions. Being perceived as the most knowledgeable is driven by personality, ego and status. Group conformity is necessary for maintaining power and control to ensure that only one narrative prevails. Everything else is "off the reservation". An hyprocrisy, since their own narrative is an invention; something to be considered as "gospel" and then laughingly, "as solid as evolution". Questioning the prevailing theology will result in a conditioned mob reflex; the interloper ejected with tar and feathers.
RLJ is a place where questioning orthodoxy is treated as a thought crime; where every discussion "off the reservation" is a threat to the established order; where appeals to wait for more information are met with deaf ears and boneheadedness.
I can dismiss small minds and mean spirits. It's boring people to death that I can't forgive.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 26, 2016 11:35:56 GMT
So my question is does anyone have any examples of GRRM explicitly lying in these interviews? I don't believe he "lies" in interviews. He answers questions "in world" however, much like the appendix says Joffrey is Robert's son because that's the official story that the "world" believes in the story. Everyone believes Jon is a bastard, and he was raised as a bastard, so "Jon is a bastard" is a true statement - for now. Having said that, I do think GRRM created an instrument he could use to "lie" when Master Yandel opened his mouth for The World of Ice and Fire. GRRM specifically says "errors and omissions" have crept into this book, so I have no doubt there was an orchestrated effort there to obscure the facts a.k.a. lie.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 26, 2016 13:53:59 GMT
He answers questions "in world" Absolutely this. He also tends to answer the question via the perspective and/or knowledge of the character being referenced: Jon is a bastard, Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany (who believes she was born 9 moons after the Sack), etc.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 26, 2016 13:56:12 GMT
Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany (who believes she was born 9 moons after the Sack) Great example!
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Post by jnr on Aug 26, 2016 14:36:32 GMT
The problem with the RLJ crowd is that they can only turn right when they should turn left. You have to fill in a lot of gaps to explain the Tower of Joy to get to RLJ. So long as you invent a story that leads to that conclusion and fit everything into that bias, you will be accepted by the group. Well, and the ToJ bit is the least of it. The graphic below is the original post from a pinned thread on Sable Hall. To the best of my knowledge, it was all correct then and I haven't learned anything in the year since I wrote it that would lead me to change it. So when you toss out the red, what are you left with? A collection of data points full of chronological gaps. You can draw lines between those points as you see fit, or refuse to do so out of logical consistency, but the points per se -- rendered in black text -- are simply a Rorschach inkblot, and thus, open to subjective interpretation. The RLJ fandom has decided that it likes the interpretation of a two-year romantic relationship, and has persistently treated it as objective reality. That attitude is going to become embarrassing for them in the near future.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 26, 2016 15:03:19 GMT
Well, and the ToJ bit is the least of it. Glad you reposted this, love this list. It illustrates IMO not only how RLJ fills in the blanks, but how GRRM has led them there, intentionally. D&D have done the same thing in the mummer's version. Yes, they incorporated fanfic into the ToJ scene and made the grave mistake of presenting a fever dream as a true event. And the fandom screams "RLJ confirmed in the show!" when nothing of the sort happened.
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Post by min on Aug 26, 2016 15:28:27 GMT
For the most part, I have viewed the RLJ romantic obsession with amusement. It' the "off the reservation" comment that offends me and requires an answer.
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Post by ac on Aug 26, 2016 15:56:56 GMT
This is an outstandingly good question, and here is my answer: No. But he also enjoys playing his games, and he will sometimes say things that have a subtler or deeper meaning than the audience, or the reader, is likely to understand at the time. In the case you point out, the context is: What he says of Dany is true. But it is not always true throughout the series, as we know, because ADWD is full of scenes in which she rules as a wealthy, powerful queen of Meereen. So it seems possible to me that he had a similar logic in mind for Jon, meaning Jon may discover he is not a bastard, and his character will gradually change in a future book in accordance with that discovery. Very interesting. I guess it comes down to whether you consider bastardy(?) to be a fixed trait like dwarfism or a temporary one like being in exile. And I think you are right in your interpretation given we have been shown various examples of bastards being legitimized in story. (sidenote: I can't even count the number of times I cursed the use of 2 different "to be" verbs when I was learning Spanish but for once I wish English had this differentiation ) Back to the drawing board.
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Post by ac on Aug 26, 2016 16:15:45 GMT
The problem with the RLJ crowd is that they can only turn right when they should turn left. You have to fill in a lot of gaps to explain the Tower of Joy to get to RLJ. So long as you invent a story that leads to that conclusion and fit everything into that bias, you will be accepted by the group. Well, and the ToJ bit is the least of it. The graphic below is the original post from a pinned thread on Sable Hall. To the best of my knowledge, it was all correct then and I haven't learned anything in the year since I wrote it that would lead me to change it. So when you toss out the red, what are you left with? A collection of data points full of chronological gaps. You can draw lines between those points as you see fit, or refuse to do so out of logical consistency, but the points per se -- rendered in black text -- are simply a Rorschach inkblot, and thus, open to subjective interpretation. The RLJ fandom has decided that it likes the interpretation of a two-year romantic relationship, and has persistently treated it as objective reality. That attitude is going to become embarrassing for them in the near future. This is a great post. I hadn't been able to find anything as comprehensive as this up until now. You've saved me a huge amount of time so thanks a lot. I completely agree with everything you have here but my main problem with RLJ is that it seems to be completely counter to everything we are told about Rhaegar's personality. And OK, most of that detail comes from former/current Targ supporters but still. As far as I can tell, Ned, who has suffered more than anyone else because what Rhaegar supposedly did, never says or thinks anything bad about him.
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Post by min on Aug 26, 2016 16:31:34 GMT
As far as I can tell, Ned, who has suffered more than anyone else because what Rhaegar supposedly did, never says or thinks anything bad about him. Yes considering that Brandon went rushing off to KL calling out Rhaegar; the outcome that he and Rickard are siezed and tortured to death; along with Robert's story that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped hundreds of times; that Ned would not yield to Ser Arthur at the ToJ.... what changed his mind? Was it Aerys who plotted Lyanna's kidnapping and rape; did he then order the 3 kingsguard to take her to Starfall and guard her there? The Mad King Skywalker baby daddy? Wouldn't that be a shocker! Ned's anger would certainly be misplaced if directed at Rhaegar. And of course Ned would see no fault in the kingsguard for keeping their vows; unlike the judgement that he heaps on Jaime for not keeping his vow regardless of what happened to his brother and father. Was Lyanna travelling with Rickard's party? Yes, very interesting AC!
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 26, 2016 17:02:31 GMT
My two sense is the theory,while proponents chide those of us that say NoRLJ for not being astute enough to discern it-It being so subtle and all,we are chided for pointing out that it is not.You can't win with this.Besides being every Disney and Grimm fairytale this theory and it proponents aren't logical in their analysis. Fans have drawn conclusions about Jon's parentage from a rumour that at its foundation doesn't stand up to scrutiny.And look we should all expect not everything would be answered and somethings we would know,but this when you put it under a microscope doesn't hold water. From the emotional evidence,to depth to GRRM style....No If i believed that this tale was a Disney or GRIMM fairytale i would buy it,and did buy it. Prince kidnaps girl keeps her in a tower for a year,girl dies,brother comes back from area where sister dies with a baby he says is his bastard...Really? So,did GRRM lie? No he didn't,he crafted a story where the characters have their heads filled with fairytales themselves.Those stories a familar to us because we grew up on the dashing prince running off with a girl who was going to get maaried off by her father to a brute.Wham!!! RLJ.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 26, 2016 17:30:17 GMT
My two sense is the theory,while proponents chide those of us that say NoRLJ for not being astute enough to discern it-It being so subtle and all,we are chided for pointing out that it is not.You can't win with this.Besides being every Disney and Grimm fairytale this theory and it proponents aren't logical in their analysis. Fans have drawn conclusions about Jon's parentage from a rumour that at its foundation doesn't stand up to scrutiny.And look we should all expect not everything would be answered and somethings we would know,but this when you put it under a microscope doesn't hold water. From the emotional evidence,to depth to GRRM style....No If i believed that this tale was a Disney or GRIMM fairytale i would buy it,and did buy it. Prince kidnaps girl keeps her in a tower for a year,girl dies,brother comes back from area where sister dies with a baby he says is his bastard...Really? So,did GRRM lie? No he didn't,he crafted a story where the characters have their heads filled with fairytales themselves.Those stories a familar to us because we grew up on the dashing prince running off with a girl who was going to get maaried off by her father to a brute.Wham!!! RLJ.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 26, 2016 17:41:20 GMT
As far as I can tell, Ned, who has suffered more than anyone else because what Rhaegar supposedly did, never says or thinks anything bad about him. Bingo. Yes considering that Brandon went rushing off to KL calling out Rhaegar; the outcome that he and Rickard are siezed and tortured to death; along with Robert's story that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped hundreds of times; that Ned would not yield to Ser Arthur at the ToJ.... what changed his mind? You've pointed out something that should be obvious: Brandon demanded Rhaegar to come out and die, yet Ned doesn't have a bad thing to say about him. What does Ned know? Obviously something contrary to what Brandon believed.
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